Charlton

[gutterpunk]

I might be stepping into something here, given how $50 nippers can raise hackles, but what the hell...

If you had some extra cash, would you buy a Charlton reel? They are on the market for between $1200 and $1800 (and up). And I mean an original 1994 to 2003 (or whatever, maybe my dates aren't correct), not the Mako reels made now by Mark Vorobik--though those may be the same and just as good, I don't know the history, Jack's widow was involved in the business after his death. Anyway...

I'm a little bit of a design geek, and there is no more aesthetically pleasing reel ever built. Jack's achievement to me is the physical design, its true of all of them--trout to big game. The Mako is pure beauty, but go back and look at an 8350 or an 8450. They are design pinnacles. They are gorgeous. They are art in the way that Frank Lloyd Wright didn't just draw up plans for a house. I can't explain why, but there's something about the design that just is.

After the first couple years of sealed cork drags he moved to multiple sealed carbon disc drags, a big range of interchangeable spools, and indestructible Type III anondyzing. He did a lot of innovative things, but for me the design is what set him apart.

But because there were only thousands of these reels made, and they were and are a niche product, I never see reviews of them, or read anyone who own them mention fishing with them. I'd love to own one. Why? I don't know--just to own one. There's literally no one I know that I could tell who would know what it is, much less be impressed or even care at all. But as someone who loves good design, I've always thought a Jack Charlton reel is the greatest thing one could ever own. i want to have one in my closet to pull out and look at, to fish, to clean, to put away, to research, to talk to other people about on some Jack Charlton owner message board that is full of rich a-holes I know I will hate.

Do any of you have one? Would you buy one? (And please don't give me the the "I could buy four great reels...." I know that---it's not the point).

 

[eastfly66]

Would you buy one?

Don't have one , but....." if I could , I surely would "..

If your looking for a nudge ? and that reel makes you that happy , you can afford it without skipping a mortgage payment or feeding the dog .....well , why not ?


BTW ... that quote above ? as a tackle junkie myself just thought I would add in case your thinking said reel is the last purchase , just remember the other song ......" and I still haven't found what I'm looking for .."

 

[moucheur2003]

When I graduated from college, my dad wrote me a congratulatory letter including a bunch of free advice. One of his observations was, "Trade income for capital to the greatest possible extent. Education, houses, and retirement savings are capital. Luxury items like fancy cars and boats are not."

In other words, if it's going to appreciate and be worth more tomorrow than you paid today, it's an investment rather than an expense. If it's something finite that won't last or hold its value, it's an expense rather than an investment.

Despite his advice, years later I find I have accumulated way more rods and reels than I reasonably need. But I did buy most of them used or discontinued, and I could probably get most or all of my money back if I sold most of them off. So in a sense they are still capital, it's just that while I own them the investment returns are more psychic than monetary. (Or so I tell myself.)

That said, if you buy the Charlton, will you be spending your income, or trading it for capital? If it's income, are there more pressing necessities that you ought to be spending it on instead -- or if there aren't, can you afford to spend it on amusement rather than converting it to capital? If it's capital, will it be a worthwhile investment, monetarily and/or psychically?

 

[sweetandsalt]

I have never owned one. A friend did so I am first-hand familiar with them but his resides attached to his GLX on the bottom of the Beaverhead somewhere. When they were discontinued, Madison River Fishing Co. in Ennis had them on sale for $300 and I contemplated but (very foolishly) declined to buy one. I have an acquaintance (a 1%er) that has and fishes several of them and it is the FIRST thing I noticed when I was introduced to him. Original Charltons along with reels hand made by Ari't Hart and Stan Bogdan are in a legitimately elite and prestigious class above the rest. Do they perform better than some well designed, Korean machined never-to-be collectible reel, not necessarily. They are though eminently fishable works of reel art that I have no doubt the Yellowstone shootout crew could find something wrong with, sic. "The rosewood handle on the Charlton tapers outward and has no gripable texturing...The rubber O rings on the Ari't Hart handle fall off on their own during extended use...the Bogdan Trout has no drag adjustment and generates a mere .25 pounds of drag" (via its not a drag spring and pawl), etc.

 

[burk48237]

I had an opportunity to buy a mint Bogdan Trout a few years ago for $1500 and held off. I'm sorry about it too this day. I met Stan Bogdan at the Trout Fest in TN a few months before he passed and his story is truly one of the great stories in Fly Fishing. I must admit if I bought it, I'd fish it. I don't believe in museum pieces.

But I agree with S & S, that Bogdans, Charltons and Ari Harts are investments. I suspect that the earlier Billy Pates, and some Sarciones will also fall into that category. The problem with investing in good fishing tackle is unlike art, the makers made them to be used. And if you use them you lower their value. I use all my Hardys, that's what I bought them for even though many are 50 years plus old. But if you want to by a Charlton to fish with, you are no doubt buying one of the finest no compromise Fly Reels ever made. If you buy it, make that drag sing. I know my Hardy Perfects do when I hook a big Silver.

 

[Ard]

If you ever read any old posts then you know I get by for the large part with Hardy reels. I have some reels that were made for Orvis also. My most expensive reel cost me 750.00 but sometimes when I'm fishing I wear a 1700.00 wrist watch............... I guess that means that if you want it for real buy it. I don't feel strange when I have 1500.00 worth of rod & reel in my right hand and the watch on the left wrist so I don't try to talk anyone out of either one.

Ard

 

[sweetandsalt]

Burk, I did not intend to suggest these rarified reels should be considered investments. I do have a Bogdan 0, made by him not his son Steve, that I got for a great bargain a long time ago. I have fished it back when I used to fish for salmon and on one very memorable occasion, up on the Miramichi's fall run tributary the Cains, I caught no fewer than seven grilse and salmon during an eclipse of the Sun using that reel. Another story is I thought this reel was tossed out in the trash during a major move two decades ago only to discover it recently in an unmarked cardboard box in storage along with my also missing pre-war St. John. I have caught both trout and even bonefish on Ari't Hart's reels and have, in the past, met him in person and Stan Bogdan too. But I've never had a Charlton and if I did I'd fish it too. I could care less about tackle as an investment, I am happy with my finest rod and reel in hand while standing in the water.

Guide Elvis holding my fish while my companion cradles my beloved Nti#8 with an Ari't Hart reel. I am in my normal mode behind the camera. Circa 2002

 

[rockriver]

I don't own one; but, if I was offered one at a great price for perfection, I'd probably jump on it.

 

[audax]

Indeed Jack Charlton designs were well thought out in features and aesthetics. I had the chance to speak with Jack at some length at a show in "94 or '95. It was shortly after the reels were on the market. Hard to believe now, but while there was plenty of activity all about, it was relatively quiet at Jack's booth during my visit. Hence I had the man almost all to myself for a while. He had a warmth and generosity about him as he shared the background on his design and explained the features of his products, and if he was bothered at all by my questions, I would have never known.

I don't have any brochures handy, but I recall the reels at that time were limited to the Elite, ThinnLine, and Signature Series. You could order your reel in one of three diameters (8400, 8500, 8600) and in one of three widths (0.8, 1.2, 1.6 inches). Functionally, I don't recall a difference between the series. The Signature, though, was the deluxe choice, featuring a high gloss finish, and the largest drag handle with the option of having your signature (or Jack's signature) or the coat of arms logo on the drag handle. The Elite and ThinnLine were more subtly appointed with smaller drag handles and matte or matte & gloss finishes. I believe Jack also offered the Signature in all titanium very early. Prices then were quite reasonable, with an aluminum Signature costing not significantly more than a comparably sized Abel.

The "Configurable" series came a couple years later. A good bit lighter than the Signature et al, with some practical features added, including narrower spool width, choice of spools depths for increased flexibility, user-convertible from RH to LH retrieve and a push button spool release.

The OP describes the "Configurable" series as "design pinnacles," and I guess I'd agree they do offer a nice combination of aesthetics and features, at least for most freshwater angling. But overall, in my mind, Jack nailed it with the Signature at the onset.

While I don't, my father has Charlton reels, both Signature and Configurable series. I think you do have to have one in your hands to truly appreciate the quality and beauty. That said, as wonderful as they are, they are still just fly reels; If you're after a reel to actually use, you can find similar capability and performance for a good deal less. If you're looking for investment, the inflated aftermarket prices have probably negated any practical ROI. But if you need a Charlton for intrinsic reasons, then you already know.

 

[Jackster]

I have yet to see a better built and better thought-out reel than the Charlton's.
I used the 8350C as my go-to reel for a number of years... maybe 20? Despite hard duty in all sorts of situations (falling? THROW THE ROD!) and some 300 fly fishing days per year a few times the reel never didn't do what a reel should. Through all of that time fishing and despite granite, gravel and other abuses the thing doesn't show a scratch. It took decades for another reel manufacturer to use Charlton's Type III hard anodizing. My understanding is the raw reel must be near-perfect to do Type III right.

They have the perfect sound when a fish was running. Not too loud and not too soft but just perfect. Being bored during a long Michigan winter I put the loupe down from really looking at fly rods and held the reel against my ear while VERY carefully listening to the click. Was each click really three clicks as in triple redundancy? Being the had a sealed drag far-be-it-for-me to think I could take it apart and reassemble it with the skill of the Charlton hands so I never gutted one to see what makes them tick. Charlton's are rare too in that they have absolutely zero slop between the spool and the frame. Smooth as silk despite the extremely close tolerances.
The then revolutionary carbon drag was sealed but also self adjusting. I never doubted either claim because they worked the same after years of use as when new.
The larger Charlton reels spools were held in place by a complicated array of fingers that came out on the diagonal sort of like a camera lens iris. You pushed down on and rotated a kept, nickel silver emblem to enact the spool release. That feature was a tribute to the mans genius.
On the mega-sized Charlton's, Jack had cooling fins machined right into the spool to cool things off on strong, hot running fish.
Sadly we are at a time where those people with the money have a LOT of money (Ever watch the Barret/Jackson type auto auctions?) and you'd have to be awful lucky or fairly well-off yourself to win a bid on a Charlton these days.

 

[gutterpunk]

Look at that thing! I know it's just my opinion, but the Mako is the most perfectly designed fly reel ever produced. Period.

I'm going to do some research on Jack--I bet he studied modern design in Scandinavia, or something.

 

[sweetandsalt]

I actually prefer the original Charlton's over the Mako. If I recall correctly, please correct me if I have this wrong, Jack and Steve Abel both worked in aerospace machining in CA and, both being anglers, had a "friendly" wager as to who could design and build the superior fly reel. If this is a true story, some of the world's finest fly reels emerged from this bet.

 

[audax]

That spool release mechanism on the Signature is something to see. As mentioned by Jackster, a collection of claws set at angles grasp the spindle. I don't know if it was a unique application of a design used in other products; however, Jack did seem particularly proud of it, so it very well may have been his unique design. I think he said it was the best choice for a secure, quick release spool. As for operating it, only a fingernail is necessary to rotate the release. Pressing down upon it while rotating may aid in gripping for those that lack enough nail, though.

Reels with Type 3 hardcoat anodizing were offered by some other makers during the same period. I think what makes a Charlton's Type 3 finish stand out is the highly polished and truly black result. Other reels with Type 3 (e.g., Harris or Henschel) feature the typical matte gray finish.

 

[jds108]

I've got three of the 8450s. Can't think of much more to add about them than what's already been said.

I was a broke college student when they were originally for sale, so I've bought mine in the last few years and paid four figures for each. I don't really worry about them losing much value as they're the first/best of their kind. Even if something similar comes along (the new Able Sealed Drag for one), I think Charltons will hold their value due to being the first of their kind.

And yes, they're nice to fish with, but since we're talking trout in my case, it's never going to make a difference in the number of fish landed and whatnot. Nevertheless, I don't regret buying them.

Ross reels somehow bought Charlton in the last year or two. They occassionally auction new-old-stock reels here: Charlton Fly Reels . More importantly to me, they can repair Charltons.

 

[sweetandsalt]

SA bought Charlton planning on moving production, you guessed it, off-shore. SA owned Ross too and when Orvis bought SA, the long time producer of Orvis fly lines, they acquired Ross as well. But didn't want it and off loaded it to Mayfly Group, owner of Abel. So, Abel was very happy to acquire Ross, Abel is moving all but the art center from CA to CO, and the Charlton design rights came along for the ride, no extra cost. There is no plan to reintroduce Charlton's that I have heard off but it would be the ultimate irony for Steve's former Co. to make Jack's former reels.

 

[gutterpunk]

I actually prefer the original Charlton's over the Mako. If I recall correctly, please correct me if I have this wrong, Jack and Steve Abel both worked in aerospace machining in CA and, both being anglers, had a "friendly" wager as to who could design and build the superior fly reel. If this is a true story, some of the world's finest fly reels emerged from this bet.

As a flyfisher who likes nothing more than a day floating down the Bitteroot or Blackfoot, I completely understand your point about the earlier reels. But the modernist, minimalist, design geek in me sees perfection in the Mako. And it's suble: the font used for the lettering, the COLOR of the font, the proportions of the ribs in the porting. It really is perfect. Just a theory, but I'd guess there might be some Fibonacci sequence (or Golden Rule) going on here.

The reel is that pleasing to look at. Okay, geek out over.

 

[bwf]

Correct me if wrong please, but I read somewhere that Jack Charlton designed, or help design and build the Sage 3000D series of fly reels. I do know that the first ones were made in the USA, and on a rare occurence one made in USA comes up for sale. Shortly after Sage moved their reel maunfacturing overseas and continued with the 3000 and 3000D series for years.

 

[mrfzx]

As someone who deals with a rather extensive reel collection of mostly E. vom Hofe's, Zwarg, and lately A.L. Walker reels, I can say with some veracity that buying reels as investments are largely a losing proposition. Yes, some, have accrued in value many times their retail prices, but most, especially modern reels have a very limited, if any investment potential. The age of true reel craftsmanship seems to have gone the way of the dodo. Hand making reels almost necessitates low production quantities, and generally, rarity drives demand ($$).
The collection I manage does include one Charlton 8350C, an original production run reel in a presentation case. Yep, it has went up in value from its purchase price, and we have declined offers in excess of $3300. It is an absolute beauty. The craftsmanship and finish are second to none in my opinion. To me, and to othrs I have had conversations with that have experience with these reels, one of the most wonderful design elements is the drag adjustment knob (really its more like a side plate with finger cut-outs). In this day of drag knobs that can be small and hard to grab with ivy cold hands ( I love Steelhead) The Charlton is amazing. Will it keep growing in value? Who knows. BUT it has all the elements of being a true classic: Low production numbers, great craftsmanship, and a great background story. Is it an Edward vom Hofe? ......time will tell.

 

[wjc]

I've lusted for a Mako since reading descriptions of the first ones. They were way underpriced, in my opinion, for several years after their introduction.

Here are a couple of interesting pictures of one salvaged by the owner nearly a year after it went overboard at the edge of some exotic tropical reef.

According to the owner, reel still worked perfectly but for the spool knob -including the drag - which had held its original setting. The anodizing had worn off in some spots from incessant wave action against the coral.

PS: The owner sent it back for a re-hab. I'd probably have just gotten a new handle and fised it as is. That would have been a good sour mash centerpiece after a hard day in the sun.

 

[Gerard]

Mako's are hard to beat. Haven't used or handled an original so can't comment. But using my Mako's against triple digit Tarpon was a revelation. Others on the trip were taking hours to get the fish in, their reels packing up, the Mako just stopped them. It was all over in as short a time as I could which was good for the fish.