Low inertia drag and tippet protection

[SRSteelheader]

Looking at buying either a new reel for a Sage ESN II 2100-4, or just a spare spool for my Lawson Guru series 1 and was wondering how much low drag startup inertia can impact tippet protection. I plan to fish down to 7.5x tippet in NC mountain creeks that typically range from 7” to 14” wild trout, but can also hold larger wild rainbow and browns (21” inch wild brown is my largest in the creek I fish most frequently). I know the rod tip will provide most of the tippet protection, but should I also be concerned about the reels drag system inertia?

 

[cb3fish]

Interesting, I didn't know you even needed a drag for 7" trout? You could just buy a click and paw reel and palm it? The click and pawl reel just might be the best low inertia start up of any reel-My 2 cents CB

 

[SRSteelheader]

Interesting, I didn't know you even needed a drag for 7" trout? You could just buy a click and paw reel and palm it? The click and pawl reel just might be the best low inertia start up of any reel-My 2 cents CB

It’s the occasional large fish moving into the creeks from the Davidson River that makes a drag beneficial, otherwise I’d use my Galvan Brookie.

 

[rodneyshishido]

With a really light tippet, I will not use the reel and its drag to fight the fish. I just strip the line in and control the "drag" pressure with my hands.

 

[cb3fish]

SR,

I just don't think you need a drag for trout especially with the light tippets you use. Example: we fish for King salmon with old wore out Hardy's (click and pawl) and 9-10 wt Sage rods with 10 pound test, My buddy caught the world record King on 7 pound test and the fish was 73 pounds, it was the largest king EVER caught on a fly rod. Now after that being said I do understand you are in different circumstances and do incur different problems then I can see from a key board, however it's something you might want to think about My 2 cents and free advice is worth about 2 cents-Good luck CB

PS this picture is me with about a 45-48 pounder-Not the record fish.

 

[planettrout]

F.Y.I:

Stretchy Indicator / Tippet Protector


PT/TB

 

[silver creek]

Looking at buying either a new reel for a Sage ESN II 2100-4, or just a spare spool for my Lawson Guru series 1 and was wondering how much low drag startup inertia can impact tippet protection. I plan to fish down to 7.5x tippet in NC mountain creeks that typically range from 7” to 14” wild trout, but can also hold larger wild rainbow and browns (21” inch wild brown is my largest in the creek I fish most frequently). I know the rod tip will provide most of the tippet protection, but should I also be concerned about the reels drag system inertia?

Start up inertia is usually a percentage of the drag setting. For example, if the drag is set a 2 lbs, a 25% start up inertia would be 0.5 lbs. The reason I use 25% is that some reels do have a start up inertia that is that is 25%.

Since the start up inertia is a % of the drag setting, the drag setting itself should be set as a % of the tipper breaking strength. Don't set the drag at over 50% of the breaking strength of the tippet and 50% is quite high. This means a 4 lb tippet drag setting could be set at 2 lbs. Try pulling up a 2lb weight with your rod.

If the start up inertia is 25% then a 2 lb drag setting would have an drag resistance of 2.5 lbs to get the drag slipping.

Another problem with a relatively high drag setting of 50% is that as fly line is taken out, the "effective radius" of the spool decreases. As the radius decreases, the force needed to rotate the spool against the reel drag increases. This is minimized by a large arbor reel but it still occurs.

Here's another problem with disk drags on trout reels. Almost all use synthetic materials like Deldrin and Rulon.

Synthetic-drag reels most often employ carbon, Delrin, or Rulon plastics (or some combination of these materials) as brake surfaces, backed up by a spring system to maintain tension. Rulon and Delrin are both extremely dense composite plastics, based on fluorocarbon and nylon, respectively. “They last more or less forever,” says Orvis’s Lepage, “and you don’t need to maintain them since they are self-lubricating.” On the other hand, neither one compresses, so the “ramp up” or increase in tension from when the fish begins to take line to when it hits maximum drag isn’t as smooth. That means an increase in “startup inertia.”

“What exactly is startup inertia anyway? Any surface that drags, from fly reels to airplane wings, is measured by its “friction coefficient.” A fly reel that has a friction coefficient of zero would have no start up inertia, no resistance to movement, meaning that the second a fish began to take line, the reel would start rotating as smoothly as if it were at top speed. Unfortunately, we know from Physics 101 that objects at rest like to stay at rest, and reels are no different. In fact, no reel has zero startup inertia, although some designs boast very low (almost negligible) numbers. On the other hand, some materials, such as carbon fiber, have high coefficients of friction — good for stopping power, but bad for startup inertia. Designers are constantly balancing these two factors.”

Brake Jobs | MidCurrent

 

[reels]

IMHO some inertia is required to properly set the hook; otherwise there's not enough power even with tiny tippet.
For my reels that can reduce to basically no inertia I have to turn the drag up a little for the set (I use 6x tippet commonly).

Is 7.5x really required or could you get away 5.5x - 6x?

 

[SRSteelheader]

Thanks all. I appreciate the feedback reading it all, and doing additional research I am not quite as concerned.

 

[osseous]

How much inertia could there be to overcome with a reel that weighs 4 oz? Some people can overthink a rum & coke~

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[sweetandsalt]

Line slipping through my fingers sets the hook on a sipping trout via the "slip-strike" (infinitely adjustable) and firming things up and with the tip down, the "strip-strike" in the salt. Should the fish warrant it, as it runs out the slack, again my fingers act as a double-clutch to moderate tension to match the engagement with the reel's set drag. All smooth and off to the races the reel sings.

 

[osseous]

Really only an issue for salt water reels- and even then, you don't need to use a lot of drag pressure (at least to start) to beat most fish. I believe Andy Mill uses 12 lbs of drag on Tarpon. He catches a few of them~

It's called "angling", and part of that is giving the rod tip to fish when they surge, reducing applied drag by your action. If you stand there like a statue, you're going to lose fish. If you let a fish drag all of your line thru the water, rather than raise your rod over your head, elevating that line out of the water- same deal.

I've been fly fishing for nearly 50 years- and I can't think of a single fish lost to start-up inertia. As S&S mentions, If you are managing your slack line as it gets taken by the fish, you can apply compensating "drag" with your line hand- effectively eliminating this "problem" altogether.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Ard]

Interesting, I didn't know you even needed a drag for 7" trout? You could just buy a click and paw reel and palm it? The click and pawl reel just might be the best low inertia start up of any reel-My 2 cents CB

I'd agree with the above fully. I fished small streams for years using a few different reels; Hardy Featherweight - CFO 123 - and a Marquis #5 and never had a broken tippet I can remember. Some of the fish could get as large as a 14" wild brown trout and they ran like small Atlantic Salmon in the small water. You may like a classic reel?

 

[sweetandsalt]

To osseous's point; whether a small stream trout, salmon, bonefish or tarpon, we are fishing. The cast, drift, eat and fight are partly scalable, partly relative to the characteristic of the species we're pursuing. Appropriately, one can fish a reel with a spring and pawl check overrun, with or without a palming rim up to a mega-drag Able or Tibor...it remains a matter of applying flexible fatiguing stress on the fish to bring it to hand. Rod angle, line control along with reel/hand pressure contribute to the gamefish tiring. Athletic tarpon expert, Andy Mill mentioned above keeps his rod angle low and avoids excessive use of his arms and back, using leg strength to subdue triple digit migratory tarpon. Somewhat similarly, Billy Pate applied the "down and dirty" to these powerful fish. I'll apply that to a trout with room to run, using water tension on the line and opposing low rod flex to steer the fish away from a snag or out of bigger currents.

For me, after all these years now with trout reels with smooth, fine drags, non-existent when I was young or to the old timers before us, there is no debate about drag or no drag. I have established beyond reasonable doubt that given the same 9'/#5 on the Henry's Fork, the same big fat rainbow, with the variable being my well worn CFO IV with rim or a Hatch 4+ (or equivalents), I will bring to net that trout some distinct % faster having the drag available, all my abilities and enjoyments being equal, and release it in good health sooner, free of lactose acid build up or pelican predation by the judicious employment of drag. I'm a manual dexterity guy and fished classic Hardy reels for a long time until the mid 80's when reels started becoming more sophisticated. I still fish a CFO on a small stream but our wild fish's well being is of paramount importance and since I go abound trying to capture and release them, every one that does not get so worn out as to be eaten by a bird or shark, I'm happier about.

 

[osseous]

I had a nice rainbow get out into the main current while wading the Green last year. 6X and size 18 BWO dry meant I couldn't apply much pressure and leverage the fish before it was well into my backing. Nor could I follow it because of the ledge rock that entered the river downstream of me. The fine drag on the Hatch 4+ allowed me to dial back on the tension as the amount of line drag increased- and eventually land the fish. A smooth drag has value on a trout reel. Not all the time- but it sure is nice when a fish like that comes to the net.
I'll be back over there next week- hoping for a repeat performance.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[bobtheflounder]

Start up inertia is usually a percentage of the drag setting. For example, if the drag is set a 2 lbs, a 25% start up inertia would be 0.5 lbs. The reason I use 25% is that some reels do have a start up inertia that is that is 25%.

Since the start up inertia is a % of the drag setting, the drag setting itself should be set as a % of the tipper breaking strength. Don't set the drag at over 50% of the breaking strength of the tippet and 50% is quite high. This means a 4 lb tippet drag setting could be set at 2 lbs. Try pulling up a 2lb weight with your rod.

If the start up inertia is 25% then a 2 lb drag setting would have an drag resistance of 2.5 lbs to get the drag slipping.

Another problem with a relatively high drag setting of 50% is that as fly line is taken out, the "effective radius" of the spool decreases. As the radius decreases, the force needed to rotate the spool against the reel drag increases. This is minimized by a large arbor reel but it still occurs.

Here's another problem with disk drags on trout reels. Almost all use synthetic materials like Deldrin and Rulon.

Synthetic-drag reels most often employ carbon, Delrin, or Rulon plastics (or some combination of these materials) as brake surfaces, backed up by a spring system to maintain tension. Rulon and Delrin are both extremely dense composite plastics, based on fluorocarbon and nylon, respectively. “They last more or less forever,” says Orvis’s Lepage, “and you don’t need to maintain them since they are self-lubricating.” On the other hand, neither one compresses, so the “ramp up” or increase in tension from when the fish begins to take line to when it hits maximum drag isn’t as smooth. That means an increase in “startup inertia.”

“What exactly is startup inertia anyway? Any surface that drags, from fly reels to airplane wings, is measured by its “friction coefficient.” A fly reel that has a friction coefficient of zero would have no start up inertia, no resistance to movement, meaning that the second a fish began to take line, the reel would start rotating as smoothly as if it were at top speed. Unfortunately, we know from Physics 101 that objects at rest like to stay at rest, and reels are no different. In fact, no reel has zero startup inertia, although some designs boast very low (almost negligible) numbers. On the other hand, some materials, such as carbon fiber, have high coefficients of friction — good for stopping power, but bad for startup inertia. Designers are constantly balancing these two factors.”

Brake Jobs | MidCurrent

That article is completely wrong. The reel (no pun intented) thing that makes a drag jerky is the breakaway friction, not the force needed to overcome the inertia of the spool, which is negligible. Breakaway friction is the difference between the static friction coefficient and the dynamic friction coefficient, not the "coefficient of friction" itself. Also the argument that rulon can't be smooth because it doesn't compress is flawed, the spring serves to modulate the force applied to the drag surfaces finely enough so that the surfaces won't jam. Springs are present even in cork drag reels. Cork does however, compress when the spool starts movingquickly , leading to a higher drag pressure than anticipated.

 

[sweetandsalt]

btf, How is your big game reel design progressing...any images yet?

 

[bobtheflounder]

btf, How is your big game reel design progressing...any images yet?

wow S&S, can't believe you remembered . I have been really busy with my real life these past few months so I have not made as much progress as I would have liked on my designs. They basically look the same as of now because I haven't decided on a porting design but the internals are prototyped and ready to go.

 

[cb3fish]

Bob,

Tell me why your "new" reel would spark anybody's interest? lets say how is it an improvement over the current Abel or Tibor ?

The only reason I ask is currently our fishing world is flooded with good rods and good reels plus there is also lots of junk rods and reels, the fishing world has never had it so good as the present time, and it makes me wonder why somebody would want to compete with the American and Korean markets? again just curious CB

 

[bobtheflounder]

A properly sealed reel (i.e. not relying on an o ring as the main seal) that is as simple and serviceable as your drawbar Abel or Tibor, with better drag performance (obviously the whole premise of a sealed reel is to be zero maintenance but after 10 years you are going to have to replace the seals and grease for top performance. and on Pelagics, you may need to change out the drag discs. Also extenuating circumstances ). And Tibors and Abels are no slouch in the drag department. Sure their drags may be a bit inconsistent but not enough to matter most of the time and they are much better at dissipating heat than the 30lb marketing hype drags that are all too common today. They just don't work for me because I treat my reels horribly and open drag reels don't like constant dunking in sand and saltwater.

I have a few other tricks up my sleeve but they are not mature enough to be put into production.