Is machined bar-stock best?

[taylorreels]

Hey Everyone,

I thought I would make a spin-off thread based on our anodizing discussion.

One common thought in the fly fishing world is the best reels are machined from bar-stock aluminum... but what if machining bar-stock isn't the strongest way to build a reel?

While machining from bar-stock is far superior to casting... there is a better way called cold-forging. When you machine bar-stock you cut directly against the grain of the aluminum. Bar-stock Aluminum has a natural grain kinda like wood. Cold-forging presses the bar-stock into a mold so that grain of the aluminum isn't cut. There is still machining after the molding process but too far lesser degree compared to machining straight from bar-stock.

We started using cold-forging on our reels a few years ago and have personally experienced the difference. Here are a few benefits of cold-forging

1. Stronger reels that are less prone to bending if dropped due to unbroken grain flow

2. Cold-forged reels have a superior anodized surface (they take the ano film better due to grain structure on the surface of the metal)

3. It saves money due to less waste in the machining process (although startup cost is more due to molds)

 

[Ard]

I didn't know this and it makes sense. Since you started another thread I should ask, I was snooping the website but didn't see green finish. I mean green kinda like Winston green, did I miss this or are there no green reels?

 

[pati]

Fascinating! Thanks for this!

I note however that the 4 reels on your website are all machined. Is there any reason why you “abandoned” the cold forging method?

Thanks!

Pat

 

[fffl]

you talked about the pros of cold forging but how about the cons , maybe you don't get the same precision you do with machined

 

[brokeoff]

Are there weak areas where additional fastening needs to occur?

 

[spm]

Very interesting. I didn't know this, either.

Thanks for posting.
steve

 

[taylorreels]

you talked about the pros of cold forging but how about the cons , maybe you don't get the same precision you do with machined

When you cold forge a reel you still have to machine it. The forging gives you the basic shape, and you need to machine it to the final product. The biggest con to cold forging is the limitations. You can only create the basic shape of the reel... after that it must be machined. You still get most the strength benefits, but you do need to cut the grain of the metal to achieve the final product. The tolerances are perfect.

We only have one reel that is still machined from bar-stock. It's our oldest reel the T1.

We don't produce a dark green color as a standard, although we can do it as a custom. We did a dark green reel once and it wasn't a very popular color.

 

[sweetandsalt]

Taylor Reels is a Forum Sponsor and these two threads about the technical aspects of reel fabrication illustrate how fortunate we are to have his expertise in our threads. And he has yet to discuss his use of carbon as a frame material as on the depicted Revolution Z.

 

[duker]

I have to agree S&S. I've got enough reels to last a lifetime, and don't see myself buying any anytime soon, but kudos to Taylor Reels for explaining the technical aspects of reel making.

I've got a lot of time for companies like Taylor who not only stand behind their products but go out of their way to explain how and why they make them the way they do. If I was considering buying a new reel, Taylor would go to the top of the list.

Scott

 

[bumble54]

I've done a lot of work in all those fields over my working life, the cons to cold forging alloys are expense, tooling used at high pressures to get the metal to "flow" do not come cheap. I've have not worked on anything that would have as thin a cross section as a fly reel however so cannot comment on the benefits or otherwise on that aspect of the method.
The future, if it were not so expensive, could be crystal growth, as used in the production of gas turbine engines and pioneered by Rolls Royce for their aero engines. Extreme strength with very light weight.

 

[rangerrich99]

I always thought that the main issue with cold forging anything was cost?

Curious: are all Taylor reels cold forged? If not, which ones are?

 

[taylorreels]

I always thought that the main issue with cold forging anything was cost?

Curious: are all Taylor reels cold forged? If not, which ones are?

Our Revolution Z, Enigma 2.0, and Array V2 are all cold-forged. Our T1 is currently our only reel that isn't cold-forged. Start-up cost is the most expensive part initially. You have to pay for the molds and potentially the machining (we source the forging from a an outside vender) It is actually cheaper per piece once you get going. You lose a huge amount of material when machining from bar-stock, which means your material price is high.

On an interesting note when we tell customers our reels are cold forged they tend to look at as a negative. The general feeling among many consumers is bar-stock is best or they think cold forged has something to do with casting. There are a few other reel companies that use cold forging but I would prefer not to disclose which ones they are.

 

[rangerrich99]

Our Revolution Z, Enigma 2.0, and Array V2 are all cold-forged. Our T1 is currently our only reel that isn't cold-forged. Start-up cost is the most expensive part initially. You have to pay for the molds and potentially the machining (we source the forging from a an outside vender) It is actually cheaper per piece once you get going. You lose a huge amount of material when machining from bar-stock, which means your material price is high.

On an interesting note when we tell customers our reels are cold forged they tend to look at as a negative. The general feeling among many consumers is bar-stock is best or they think cold forged has something to do with casting. There are a few other reel companies that use cold forging but I would prefer not to disclose which ones they are.

Thanks! Among my myriad hobbies I collect knives and I'm involved in shooting sports so I have a passing knowledge of what cold forging involves, but I was always told that the process has an added cost over casting for example. Your explanation is more precise.

 

[taylorreels]

I've done a lot of work in all those fields over my working life, the cons to cold forging alloys are expense, tooling used at high pressures to get the metal to "flow" do not come cheap. I've have not worked on anything that would have as thin a cross section as a fly reel however so cannot comment on the benefits or otherwise on that aspect of the method.
The future, if it were not so expensive, could be crystal growth, as used in the production of gas turbine engines and pioneered by Rolls Royce for their aero engines. Extreme strength with very light weight.

I had to look up "crystal growth" and it is fascinating. What is even more interesting to me is it's done with casting!

 

[bobtheflounder]

Are the reels final form forged or cut from cold forged aluminum?

 

[taylorreels]

We forge the basic shape into a mold and machine the final product. A reel has too much detail to final form forge...

 

[bobtheflounder]

Are you cold forging a bar and then machining it or are you forming the majority of the shape in a mold and then machining?

Just because I have seen quite a few companies (although its mostly with spinning or conventional reels) claim to have forged parts when they are just cut from cold forged bar stock. I am in no way accusing you of that.

 

[taylorreels]

Are you cold forging a bar and then machining it or are you forming the majority of the shape in a mold and then machining?

Just because I have seen quite a few companies (although its mostly with spinning or conventional reels) claim to have forged parts when they are just cut from cold forged bar stock. I am in no way accusing you of that.

We shape the majority of the reel via the cold forging process. Once we have the basic shape we machine out the details.

On a side note one thing I have seen in the fly fishing industry in the last few years is companies labeling a reel as "machined" when in fact they are cast and machined after the fact. I do find that a little deceiving.

 

[rc51sport]

How much material is left after cold forging to remove by machining?
Do you use a wire EDM on any of your reels?

I just recently bought myself one of your special edition T1s and was admiring how intricate the design seemed.
I'm a machinist/ tool maker and was pretty impressed. Been trying to work out your process in my head
The T1 is a beautiful reel with a beautiful smooth feel. Very light too!

 

[taylorreels]

How much material is left after cold forging to remove by machining?
Do you use a wire EDM on any of your reels?

I just recently bought myself one of your special edition T1s and was admiring how intricate the design seemed.
I'm a machinist/ tool maker and was pretty impressed. Been trying to work out your process in my head
The T1 is a beautiful reel with a beautiful smooth feel. Very light too!

Once cold forged the shape, size, and basic form are all there. From there we machine out any holes or deeper details.

Thanks on the T1. It is the only reel we still make from bar-stock. We still have some tricks up out sleeves for the future of the T1. The T1 follows the design of our original reel the TYPE1. It's a design style we plan on keeping alive for years to come!