Rod Spine...up or down?

[king joe]

Ok, so I finally pulled the pin and bought my first (hopefully of many) rod components. Batson RX7 9', 5wt...etc. etc.

I have been reading and researching building techniques for a very long time (years even) before pulling the pin and here...standing on the precipice of making the plunge and starting to stick things together...I am a bit conflicted and I hope the group here can help.

In reading what many have called the Bible of Fly Rod Building, Art Sheck says...find the spine and mount your guides on that side....and proceeds to give his 'arguments' why.

In Garcia's book however, he states...find the spine and mount your guides OPPOSITE to that spine....and again, in more scientific manner (Sheck's argument is more folksy), lays out why you mount opposite to the spine.

One message is common....spine is up or down...to avoid twisting (if placed at 90 degrees to the spine).

I suppose, another common message seems that spine up or down for fly rods is less important than for casting rods.

So, what are 'your' thoughts on spine 'science' relative to guide placement?

King Joe Outa Here!

 

[petee]

Uh oh.................... now you've done it . Three things you will never get agreement on: religion. politics, and to build on the spine or off the spine.

Rumor has it on really big fish the rod will try to twist to its natural spine. I have never tested that theory as I can't seem to catch really big fish. Some say building directly on of off the spine will either help with your forward cast or the lift off the water. Sage says they build on the straightest axis. Don't want to buy a $700+ rod that looks crooked :shades:.

Personal opinion: 90% of fishermen can't tell the difference. Of the remaining 10%, probably 5% of them are lying. The majority of FFF certified casting instructors can probably tell.

Me? On a straight blank I build on the spine. Why tempt fate? Plus I do notice better tracking when I build on or 180 degrees off the spine. Better tracking = better accuracy on the cast.

When you realize that the spine is the weak side of the blank it makes sense that the rod will try to go to it when you are in a tug -o-war with a fish.

Pete

 

[oarfish]

It really doesn’t mater if the rod is straight or not place your guides on the spine. Major rod building companies build on how straight the rod looks not if it will be the strongest.

Rick

 

[williamhj]

Saw this video for the first time tonight, perhaps some of you have seen it before. There were a couple of interesting points. One is that he builds blanks so the spine will be on the top when then rod is held out over the water. So for a casting rod the guides are on the spine and for spinning and fly rods they are opposite.

Secondly is the comment as they transition from finding the spine to assembling the handle he indicates that if you hold the blank so that the spine faces up you'll see a gentle up-curve, I'm wondering if others have found this to be true? I'll have to check it next time I have a blank on hand. But it seems to follow that, unless a blank has multiple curves in it, the straightest axis, when the curve goes up or down rather than to the sides, will give you guides on either the spine or opposite the spine.

Thoughts?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzxDEzY3oOk]Basic Rod Building By Gary Loomis & Ken Wiebe - YouTube[/ame]

 

[swirlchaser]

I build fly and spinning rods 180* from the spine. Casting rod guides go on the spine. It's where the blank naturally likes to bend, I think it should be fished that way.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 AM ----------

On a fly or light tackle rod I don't believe it makes too much difference. I started out building conventional tackle, on an 80-130lb class stand up rod it makes a huge difference. Every blank has a natural curve it prefers to follow, especially 1 piece blanks. When a 300+lb Yellowfin hits and runs you can be sure the rod will bend the way it wants to. I've seen poorly spined rods twist in an anglers hands when under a heavy load. Now it's just a habit so I do it on every rod.

 

[swcr]

So if you build on the spine, then I assume that you are always going to be casting as well as fighting the fish directly straight on in line with the spine.
Your fish is never going to run to the side, or you are never going to cast except directly overhead. Remember the spine is also the weakest point of the blank in terms of dead lift. The reason it rolls to that spot, is because that is where the least material is causing it to go to that spot.

 

[fredaevans]

Really old memory here, and subject to a 'Nooooo, noooo, noooo.' Been years since I've built a rod (the comment about spine up/down depending on what your building still appears to hold) but "The reason it rolls to that spot, is because that is where the least material is causing it to go to that spot."

Actually I think that's where the 'wrap' ended.

Comment subject to major criticism. :icon_sad:

fae

 

[todvan]

.............................................

When you realize that the spine is the weak side of the blank it makes sense that the rod will try to go to it when you are in a tug -o-war with a fish.

Pete

So is the spine the concave side or the convex side? Aren't both sides the same strength since each (convex or concave) is being bent the same amount? I agree that this is the direction the rod wants to bend easiest and it doesn't hurt to line this direction up with your guides. Just not sure what side is weaker.....

 

[king joe]

So is the spine the concave side or the convex side? Aren't both sides the same strength since each (convex or concave) is being bent the same amount? I agree that this is the direction the rod wants to bend easiest and it doesn't hurt to line this direction up with your guides. Just not sure what side is weaker.....

So....would it be that the line goes through the blank itself, the blank then may turn to the spine away from the load. BUT, as shown in a couple of the rod books I mentioned...the "science" (and logic) on rods spinning relative to the spine...doesn't happen because of the guides. That said, guides on the spine or off....if the load is attached to the line...because the guides are off the rod and off the spine, that extra force will take the rod where the load wants to go.....basically, the line in the guides keeps the rod 'on track'.

It has also been said though, that my (not really mine, but mine gleaned from reading) comment does not hold true if the guides are not placed on the spine or 180 degrees away. If placed at 90 or so from the spine, apparently twist will be experienced as well as imapcts to casting accuracy.

All said, Art Schenk says...the majority of fly fishers wouldn't know the difference in casting or fighting relative to guides ON or off the spine. I think THAT is where the primary issue is.

Of course, and to be certain, I am not speaking from a place of experience....still working on my first build. I am speaking from the point of being well researched and as a scientist...which I am.

King Joe Outa Here!

 

[swirlchaser]

All said, Art Schenk says...the majority of fly fishers wouldn't know the difference in casting or fighting relative to guides ON or off the spine. I think THAT is where the primary issue is.

King Joe Outa Here!

That right there is the key. You have to realize that the practice of spinning a rod started way before graphite and carbon fiber. When I started building fiberglass was king and those blanks had VERY noticable spines. If you cut and ferruled a one piece blank (very common since you couldn't buy a multi piece blank) and didn't line up the sections after cutting it they would twist at the ferrules when you put a load on the rod. Heavy offshore rods would definately twist in your hands if the rod wasn't spined. Spining a rod would also impact the cast (not like you would actually try to cast a 5'5" 130lb class rod) but the power to raise and fight a fish was way more important. With todays materials and manufacturing processes spinning a rod probably wouldn't make a noticable difference, but I do it anyway

 

[nick k]

Many places seem to say that building on the spine favors heaver, tougher rods, and building 180 from the spine seems to favor low weight, lighter rods.

The spine itself is the strongest part, and resists bending, thats why the rod will pop around it when you roll to find it. Think of it like you would your own body. Your spine runs down your back, if you wanted a nice smooth bend and to absorb a lot of pressure, you would put something in front of you and bend at your stomach. If you wanted a lot more resistance and and a less forgiving bend, you would place the object behind you, and try to bend backwards (granted, not too feasible for most humans, but you get the idea).

 

[dean_mt]

Good, a little rod building talk. The fishing is **** around here and I'm going a little nuts.

I'll just say that I do not have anything to add on which side of the spine to mount your guides, I've read the arguments for both and while I wish I did, I do not know which is better or why.

I would however like to comment on the idea that there is a "strongest" part to a rod. I am assuming that when people make an argument about the stronger side that they do not mean stiffness rather in regard to breakage strength of the rod. The idea that there is a "stronger" side to a long shaft maybe true, there is more material on one side, or the there is a seam (point of weakness) along one side where the cylinder was closed. But when a rod breaks it breaks around the shaft, perpendicular to the length. I can see no way that putting pressure along the curve of a rod either with the spine up or down will have any effect on the strength of the rod.

I do not know the Physics of the problem at hand. This is only my assumption. I wish there was someone who could explain the Physics of the problem, because that is the only way to answer it.

Otherwise, if the concern over where the spine is placed in relationship to the guides is not about the breakage strength but about the casting ability of a regular fly rod, I don't think it is anything to lose sleep over. As said, 95% of fisherman will not be able to tell the difference.

 

[nick k]

Good, a little rod building talk. The fishing is **** around here and I'm going a little nuts.

I'll just say that I do not have anything to add on which side of the spine to mount your guides, I've read the arguments for both and while I wish I did, I do not know which is better or why.

I would however like to comment on the idea that there is a "strongest" part to a rod. I am assuming that when people make an argument about the stronger side that they do not mean stiffness rather in regard to breakage strength of the rod. The idea that there is a "stronger" side to a long shaft maybe true, there is more material on one side, or the there is a seam (point of weakness) along one side where the cylinder was closed. But when a rod breaks it breaks around the shaft, perpendicular to the length. I can see no way that putting pressure along the curve of a rod either with the spine up or down will have any effect on the strength of the rod.

I do not know the Physics of the problem at hand. This is only my assumption. I wish there was someone who could explain the Physics of the problem, because that is the only way to answer it.

Otherwise, if the concern over where the spine is placed in relationship to the guides is not about the breakage strength but about the casting ability of a regular fly rod, I don't think it is anything to lose sleep over. As said, 95% of fisherman will not be able to tell the difference.

I believe the "strength" that we (or most people) refer to when they say a rod is stronger on one side is really better described as the rod's resistance to bend.

As I mentioned, take the human body for example. The spine runs down our body, but obviously internally closer to our back than our front. You can think of the spine as a human bending forwards and backwards. If you build on the inside of the spine (on our chest), the rod will bend easier, and absorb more pressure (protecting light tippets more). If you build on the spine itself, our back, there is more resistance to bend and you will have more pulling/leverage power, as it is more resistant to bend at that angle.

As countless people have said, the difference here probably isn't very noticeable, but it certainly does exist.

 

[wjc]

I don't know anything about building rods, but I do know that all of my rods twist on a backcast in a counterclockwise direction looking down from the sky. And they twist in a clockwise direction on the forward cast.

How I know this is because I line the guides up 45 degrees out from my right side instead of in line with the reel like most people. That way I never get "haul jam" or haul "lock up" anymore, always have the same minimal friction on the haul, and get a better and more consistent shoot as a result. A lot of the competitive distance casters I see twist the rod 90 degrees on the forward cast, which amounts to the same thing I do - just an extra 45 degrees.

I can twist the top section alone of any of my rods 180 degrees (including 12 wts) holding the tip top between thumb and pinkie finger only and twisting. So I know that when I am casting, the tip top is twisting toward the direction of the line as the rod loads.

What a lot of rod builders will do down here do now (if the customer wants) is run the guides on big conventional rods in a spiral so the tip top is upside down relative to the reel. This precludes the inclination for the rod to twist while fighting fish - which I recall happening as a kid while fishing solid fiberglass conventional gear.

It really makes it hard cranking while your other hand is battling a lot of torsional strain as well as regular down strain. And every half turn of the crank is adding to the torsional strain on the other hand because you have to crank in the same direction as the torsional strain your rod hand is working against.

I didn't notice any difference in accuracy when I started twisting my rod sections out. And I've not broken any rods catching large tarpon with them twisted either - though I have had them wind up straight again at the end of a fight with one.

So I don't think that rod twisting while casting or fighting fish does any harm at all to a decent fly rod. But that is just the opinion of a fisherman, not a rod builder.