Understanding Rod Taper/Design and My Quiver

[brokeoff]

So, I'm a gear junkie and have been on a quest to find the perfect rod. I started out with all Sage, sold all of them for T & T Solars in 8/9/10 and a 10 wt Exocett. I was really sold on the T & T idea that I needed to feel the rod load more so I could concentrate on the fish and not on my casting. I have spent most of my time with the 10 wt Exocett but recently picked up a 9 wt Method for windy days. I'm not sure the Exocett fits my casting style. It feels like a noodle next to the Method and I can't tighted my loops up for the life of me. I feel like the Method can pick up line a lot more easily

I took the Method out to practice cast in 25+ mph winds and it was killer.

So I feel like I am finally able to understand what S&S means when he talks about James Anderson liking a softer tip on the rod. Is it that I am casting wrong or have I just found the rods that are preferable for my casting style?

Finally, if I like the Method for wind and longer shots then what is it's no wind/short game counterpart?

 

[sweetandsalt]

I'm not sure about James, it is his dad, George, I was indicating insists on a softer tip specifically to aid in feeling the rod load. It is my view that rods of differing design and make in different line sizes make up a better kit than all one kind...others would of course feel otherwise. Folks who love Method rarely find many other rods to satisfy the razor sharp loops and spectacular line speed big red generates.

I would surely suggest sampling SALT HD, particularly in heavier line sizes and I was taken with X #8 at Edison. They are a different, more progressive type taper than the Sages but you know I like G.Loomis NRXs and though I have only test cast not fished, Asquith is fascinating. I intend to take a sample of Exocett #7 to the Bahamas with me next month along with my new Stickman T8. Lastly, and I know no real information, but it is rumored that Method is the next Sage to become HD, possibly as soon as this summer.

 

[hambone111]

If you are out there fishing and bringing fish in hand then i dont think there is a "wrong" cast or a 'right" cast. you have a style and it sounds like you're progressing through some great rods to find that one that works for you . nothing wrong with that.

Your casting style will evolve too over the years. i know mine has.

so i would encourage you to continue to have a variety of tapers and rods around as some days you might feel like using the grip it and rip it style of the Method and another day you might find something a little softer an more progressive is whats in order for whatever reason. Some days i feel like throwing my Solar and some days i want to throw the B3x. just depends on the river and what mood im in.

 

[silver creek]

So, I'm a gear junkie and have been on a quest to find the perfect rod. I started out with all Sage, sold all of them for T & T Solars in 8/9/10 and a 10 wt Exocett. I was really sold on the T & T idea that I needed to feel the rod load more so I could concentrate on the fish and not on my casting. I have spent most of my time with the 10 wt Exocett but recently picked up a 9 wt Method for windy days. I'm not sure the Exocett fits my casting style. It feels like a noodle next to the Method and I can't tighted my loops up for the life of me. I feel like the Method can pick up line a lot more easily

I took the Method out to practice cast in 25+ mph winds and it was killer.

So I feel like I am finally able to understand what S&S means when he talks about James Anderson liking a softer tip on the rod. Is it that I am casting wrong or have I just found the rods that are preferable for my casting style?

Finally, if I like the Method for wind and longer shots then what is it's no wind/short game counterpart?

The Method is supposed to be an ULTRA fast rod action and the Exocett is a fast rod action. So I do understand that you say the Exocett is a "noodle" next to the Method. So you have a casting stroke that is suited to a very fast fly rod. What confuses me a bit is that you picked up a 9 wt Method for windy days when a 10 wt fly line is better able to cut through the wind than a 9 wt line - the 10 wt line has less air resistance per mass. So why not a 10 wt Method for wind?

I suggest an experiment. Try the 9 wt line on your Exocett and the 10 wt line on your Method and see how uplining the Method vs downlining the Exocett feels. Then try casting into the wind with those setups. I think you may find both that the 10 wt line on the 9 wt Method rod suits you better for short casts than the 9 wt in no wind; and the 9 wt line on the Exocett feels better with no wind than the 10 wt line, and the 10 wt line on the Exocett feels better for shorter casts. Mix and match the rods and lines.

 

[brokeoff]

I think one issue is that I should be using the right tool for the right job. I am certain that the Exocett is fully capable of handling wind but it might not be ideal on a day I chose deliberately to cast in horrible wind. The main issue could be that the Method was great in the wind with the powerful short stroke and then when I did the exact same thing to the Exocett it fell apart a bit.

I took the Exocett out the next day (10 - 15 mph wind) and it performed well. Casted it last night in no wind and it was great.

So I think part of it could be that I need to be very conscientious when I am changing rods. With that being said, I'm taking my current rods down to the fly shop and test casting them next to the competition. Hoping to leave with a new 9 wt on Saturday.

 

[brokeoff]

The Method is supposed to be an ULTRA fast rod action and the Exocett is a fast rod action. So I do understand that you say the Exocett is a "noodle" next to the Method. So you have a casting stroke that is suited to a very fast fly rod. What confuses me a bit is that you picked up a 9 wt Method for windy days when a 10 wt fly line is better able to cut through the wind than a 9 wt line - the 10 wt line has less air resistance per mass. So why not a 10 wt Method for wind?

I suggest an experiment. Try the 9 wt line on your Exocett and the 10 wt line on your Method and see how uplining the Method vs downlining the Exocett feels. Then try casting into the wind with those setups. I think you may find both that the 10 wt line on the 9 wt Method rod suits you better for short casts than the 9 wt in no wind; and the 9 wt line on the Exocett feels better with no wind than the 10 wt line, and the 10 wt line on the Exocett feels better for shorter casts. Mix and match the rods and lines.

Since the 10 wt Exocett is slower I use the half heavy SA Mastery Saltwater or an Airflo Striper Ridge. Both 40' and 305 gr at 30'. For the 9 wt Method, which is fast, I use a Rio Permit which is a 37 ft head and 280 gr at 30'. Come to think of it, I was under the impression that the 9 wt Rio was heavier than the 10 wt SA. I'll flip them just for fun.

There are two reasons I picked up a 9 wt Method. First, it came up for sale used and a good price so I snagged it. Second, I'm planning on taking it on my first permit trip to Belize in a month. I've heard that a 9 wt is a great Belize/MX permit rod. Also, the Method throws heavy lines that are actually ten wts. I recently heard Nathaniel Linville mention that some guys are moving towards 9 wts even in the Keys. Makes sense since we are all now throwing 10 wt lines on our 9 wt rods (with the exception of some Cortland and Monic lines).

 

[sweetandsalt]

As is the rule, fly size/weight/wind resistance dictates line size. Presentation technique suggests rod action/power. There is a wrinkle in this formula for the salt; 9-weight rods are often designed to cast and 10-weights often morph into lifting capabilities. When I'm not specifically targeting permit as when bonefishing in the Bahamas, I have a #9 rigged with a crab fly for either permit or a big bone on a deeper flat. In Belize, where I have only fished once in 2006, I elected to minimize fishing for bonefish and focused on permit...though we fished tarpon in the early morning and some bonefishing on non-permit tides. Fishing permit I have two rods rigged for them, a #9 and a 10-weight with a big and bigger/heavier crab fly. One of my favorite all-time questions to ask a guide is, "I see him, do you want the #9 or 10?"

This was before Method, no doubt the top permit rod today, but is predecessor, Sage TCR #9, on a dead flat calm big lagoon flat. I fished an EP Fuzzy Crab, kind of a much improved riff on a Merkin. I fell out of the panga while fighting this fish which is why I look wet...its a long story but here is a permit on a 9-weight.

 

[brokeoff]

The photo right there is great! The only thing that could be better than catching a permit would be falling in the water and catching a permit (as long and no sweetandsalts were injured in the making of the photo).

I threw the 10 wt Exocett last night with the 9 wt RIO Permit and really liked it. I need to do some more testing on a windy day, maybe tomorrow during the nor'easter.

So, if you were heading down only for permit and had a 9 wt Method and 10 wt Exocett, what would you do to fill in that third rod? 10 wt Method or a more moderate 9 wt like the Exocett, Meridian, X, Salt HD, etc.

Don't forget, as of right now my two rods are going down with 9 wt permit lines.

 

[steveid]

Just got back from Belize. I'm still new to flats fishing, I won't claim to be the expert and anybody can dispute what I have to say. But, here are my two cents...

1) You'll be there at a more favorable time for both the fish and the wind. February is too early. Being in Belize during a slower fishing seasons still beats the heck out of being stuck in snow. But, the best fishing, according to everyone I talked to, is April-July. Next time I'll go during those months should my schedule allow.

2) Take rods that are purpose built for the situation. One needs to be versatile, maybe a fast nine weight for lighter permit patters that could also throw bonefish patterns on windy days. The other rod needs to be able to throw a mile. This is your rod for fishing far, and for fishing at normal distances on windy days. I would want a Method or Salt HD 10 weight if I were going again. Remember, a rod that can touch 80 feet may not be the best at casting inside 40, but it can still do it. A rod that is great from 50 in won't even be fish-able beyond 50 on a windy day. This 10 can throw heavy crab patterns for ideal conditions, or all of your permit flies in the wind.

3) For the reasons I mentioned above, I wouldn't specifically look to over-line anything. I had a Sage X 896 that was paired with Rio Flats Pro, a line that is one size heavier than marked, and it robbed that rod. I would have been much better suited with Rio Bonefish that is closer to true weight. Pick lines that make the rod perform for what you want it to do for situational fishing. I've never understood why people buy a rod like a Method, built to fish long, and then over-line it to make it fish the same zone as the much slower rods in the quiver.

4) Pick a good 7 or 8 Weight to keep rigged with a size 8 cream/white/tan Charlie Pattern with lead eyes and a pink head tied on it. That got the most bonefish eats for me. My Bolt 7 weight was impressive with Flats Pro, could have been even better with Bonefish. I'll be testing that soon.

5) Take some tarpon leaders and a wire leader for Cudas if the action gets slow. Seeing a Cuda move at the speed of light to crush a fast stripped fly is pretty sweet.

 

[sweetandsalt]

The photo right there is great! The only thing that could be better than catching a permit would be falling in the water and catching a permit (as long and no sweetandsalts were injured in the making of the photo).

I threw the 10 wt Exocett last night with the 9 wt RIO Permit and really liked it. I need to do some more testing on a windy day, maybe tomorrow during the nor'easter.

So, if you were heading down only for permit and had a 9 wt Method and 10 wt Exocett, what would you do to fill in that third rod? 10 wt Method or a more moderate 9 wt like the Exocett, Meridian, X, Salt HD, etc.

Don't forget, as of right now my two rods are going down with 9 wt permit lines.

Flats Pro, similar to Permit is about a full size overweight. Basically putting Permit on your Exocett, you cast it with true to weight line, that's good. For the 9-weight Method, I don't have experience as to its optimal line. One I would like to try on it would be SA's Mastery Grand Slam. If I were adding a heavy duty permit rod it would be SALT HD with Flats Pro making it more like an 11-weight but I would want a #7 or 8 for them little bones too. That one could be the X or Exocett with RIO or SA Bonefish.

 

[brokeoff]

For now, I am going to stick with 9s and 10s. When I asked the guide about the fishery he said, "permit. no tarpon!" Ha. I think this is supposed to be a very focused trip. No bonefish, no tarpon.

Also, you are talking 10 wt Salt HD with a 10 wt Flats Pro correct?

While I like the RIO permit on the Method I can see where a lighter line would tighten up the loops even more. I had an 8 wt Method with a RIO Bonefish and that had the tightest loops of any rod I have cast. With that being said, I know gotchas/crazy charlies and distance shots are not the name of the game for this upcoming trip.

 

[sweetandsalt]

I cast and wrote about testing S HD#8 at Edison. It was loaded by Sage with #8 Flats Pro. I anticipated it was going to feel too heavy but I was wrong. Apparently the new rod favors the heavier line. Conversely, X #8 (which I also tried Flats Pro on) much preferred RIO Bonefish. Method might too. I fish Gold on my M #6. You could go out at pre-dawn and jump tarpon with the S HD#10 no problem.

 

[brokeoff]

Well guys...I splurged. Almost want to keep it at that.

 

[steveid]

Well guys...I splurged. Almost want to keep it at that.

Nice try! Spill the beans!

 

[brokeoff]

The answer is at the bottom if you don't want to schlep through my drawn out thought process on picking up the new rod.

So, because this is my first time buying a new new rod I decided I should go try all of my options to find the perfect one. In my head, I already thought I would leave with a 9 wt Exocett and either put an 8 wt Rio Permit or Cortland/Monic true to weight line on it.

At the shop I mentioned that I had a 9 wt Method and wanted another 9 wt for in close. The first rod they pulled off the rack was the old Sage Salt. In my head I knew I just wouldn't jump for the old one since Sage quickly turned around and released the Salt HD. I confessed my vanity and asked if we could pull out everything.

It seemed to me that the guy at the shop was an Orvis guy. His first option was the H3F which I didn't cast and shot down for possibly being too limited to in close. Then he brought out the H3D. Great rod but I wanted to try them all. He brought out:

Sage Salt - didn't spend much time here. Wanted to move on to the Salt HD. Since I have owned the Xi3 (9wt) and Salt (11wt) I didn't feel like this had as much potential as a flats rod.

Orvis H3D - I'm not an Orvis guy. Branding wise I think they seem a little...stale...no offense to anyone. Oh yeah, the rod...UNREAL. While the shop guy watched me test cast it I was laying out precise and accurate casts over and over. Plenty of feel in close compared to the Method and I had good control of my loops. I new I really didn't want to want this rod but the performance was undeniable...the rod was easy to cast and very accurate. On a side note, what's with the giant white label and the robotic looking reel seat?

Scott Meridian - I made a half dozen casts and put this one away. It did not fit my casting stroke or I can't cast the Meridian. I'm totally okay with that either way. On a side note, good looking rod.

T & T Exocett - I tried this one a few times but it wasn't able to perform with the RIO Permit 9 wt line. Big open loops, trouble controlling my back cast, precise but issues with accuracy in those conditions. I tried to force it and realized without the right line I wouldn't be taking it home. Side note, when spending horrible amounts of money on fly rods they should be finished like the Exocett. After comparing all the reel seats and wraps to the Exocett I can now fully appreciate what guys mean when they say, "craftsmanship."

Sage Salt HD - It didn't feel great from the start. It casted fine but I had to try and make it work. It didn't feel great so I put it right down. I knew I wanted the rod to just jump out at me.

Loomis Asquith - I almost didn't want to like this one. It has a silly name and a pretentious price tag. The first few casts I spent feeling the different in action like I had done with the other rods. I was watching my loops and where/when the rod flexed at certain points during the cast. After a few casts it's accuracy was up their with the H3D. What I noticed was that this rod responded very well to small corrections, most made by my wrist, that often times would lead to a blown cast in another rod. The tip was soft enough so I was able to hit a 25 ft target fairly easily (frankly, I think most shots in this close are completed using timing/intuition/experience rather than feel). I was able to cast the best loops with the rod, especially keeping a high tight loop on the back cast, and felt it it would probably excel best in a broad range of flats fishing conditions. Side note, it is an unattractive rod (surprised how ugly the reel seat is...and do we need more forest green flats rods? thought we learned our lesson 9 wt NRX!). I like companies that are moving toward matte finishes.

Clutch Archipelago 10 wt - Since I was doing very well with the H3D the shop guy brought out the Clutch in a 10 wt that fished best with a 9 wt line. Accuracy was on par with the H3D. One of the better looking rods. It wasn't as good in close as the Asquith. I enjoyed it but felt a little skeptical of the newer company.

So, I tested all the rods 3 times each (took about 2 hours).

Went with the Asquith. Two honorable mentions were the very accurate Orvis H3D and the Clutch Archipelago. I'm almost embarrassed to have such an expensive rod but it's one of my only vices these days. It was a joy to cast and I think the best way to justify the cost is to keep improving my casting skills to enable me to extract all of it's potential.

Speaking of potential, after the guys packed up I threw the Method just to compare while everything was still fresh. There is a reason they finished Method in Magma Red...

:flame:

 

[steveid]

Good for you! As they said in the show Parks and Recreation, sometimes you just have to “treat yo-self!”

I saw an Asquith at Orlando Outfitters. I didn’t want to handle a rod of that cost that I had no intention to buy, simply out of respect for their inventory. But, I wish I had looked it over a little closer.

Completely agree with you about cosmetics. I dislike the green tones in my X. It’s virtually unnoticeable most of the time, but it’s pretty obvious in the pounding sun of a salt flat. I love the look of the Salt HD!

I accidentally won an auction for a brand new Method 5 weight. Don’t need it, but the price was right. May end up returning it. However, if Method HD happens this summer, I’ll own it in either 8 or 10 weight or both.

 

[sweetandsalt]

I'm surprised you did not include Sage X, one of the better in-close casting flats rods. Now, G.Loomis has never received many accolades for being pretty, that is T&T's arena. Steve Rajeff designed rod are casters, as good as they get. You did great selecting Asquith, congratulations. I did meet with Clutch's, Lee Janick, at Edison and cast one of his trout rods but not Archipelago, I wish I had. I did cast H3#8D and thought it very good but among today's stellar group of flats rods, an also ran.

 

[brokeoff]

I'm surprised you did not include Sage X, one of the better in-close casting flats rods. Now, G.Loomis has never received many accolades for being pretty, that is T&T's arena. Steve Rajeff designed rod are casters, as good as they get. You did great selecting Asquith, congratulations. I did meet with Clutch's, Lee Janick, at Edison and cast one of his trout rods but not Archipelago, I wish I had. I did cast H3#8D and thought it very good but among today's stellar group of flats rods, an also ran.

That probably would have been a good idea. I'd like to test the NRX, Winston Whatever, and the X. One reason I might have shied away from the X is that it replaced the One. I have a the One in 6 wt and never really dialed it in. I know lots of flats guys down south really liked the One in a 9 wt.

What did you mean about the H3D?

 

[steveid]

That probably would have been a good idea. I'd like to test the NRX, Winston Whatever, and the X. One reason I might have shied away from the X is that it replaced the One. I have a the One in 6 wt and never really dialed it in. I know lots of flats guys down south really liked the One in a 9 wt.

What did you mean about the H3D?

I believe he means it was good, but didn’t stand out like the cream of the crop.

 

[sweetandsalt]

ONE and X are quite different in my opinion. My favorite ONEs are the trout sizes. I don't own but have fished a guides ONE#9 and it is not for me. X#8 though is exceptional. H3D is fine and maybe better than fine but kind of vanilla but could be cross tested against X and Exocett. But I have not fished it only test pond casting. S HD is a powerhouse. Asquith #8 is a lot like NRX only lighter and better and NRX remains at or near the top in pure performance.