Orvis Helios3 D vs Sage Ignitor

[Peled]

Who were lucky to test both rods ? Interested in sizes 9 and 10. How would you compare those rods ? What pros & cons you see for each rod ?

 

[sweetandsalt]

I have not, Peled, and I hope you will and report your observations. I have test cast only one H3, the #8D and liked it a lot. I wrote about it in a loose comparison with Sage X, S HD, T&T Exocett, Shimano-Loomis Asquith and Stickman T8 (Ignitor did not yet exist). A tough group for any rod to compete among. Subsequently, I have fished Ignitor #5 all this past season. While it only hints at what the #8 version would be like, my curiosity to try it is substantial.

 

[Peled]

Hi sweetandsalt, I would test immediately if could find rods next to me.
Is Avantt model belongs to Shimano or T&T ?
So far original Salt remains my favorite. Not impressed by Salt HD at all. That is a good rod, but not what I like. Find Sage X nice in 486 in 4/5 models, not much in longer versions.
So, looking for feedback from forum.

 

[sweetandsalt]

Hi sweetandsalt, I would test immediately if could find rods next to me.
Is Avantt model belongs to Shimano or T&T ?
So far original Salt remains my favorite. Not impressed by Salt HD at all. That is a good rod, but not what I like. Find Sage X nice in 486 in 4/5 models, not much in longer versions.
So, looking for feedback from forum.

Avantt is T&T's quicker freshwater rod, I miss-wrote above where I meant Asquith, and Exocett their hot salt rod series. As you know my favorite X is the 8 1/2'/#5 (& 4) and while I like them better than the X 9' versions, the 8-weight is something else...not as potent as SALT but a great delicate presentation #8 with ample guts.

 

[Ard]

I'll risk sounding really silly by saying but I would have the Sage Igniter 13'6" in either an 8 or 9 but I can't handle the color.

I've only ever had one brightly colored graphite rod, a Sage VT-2 I think they were called. Bright blue and the tip was way too soft which made selling it easy. Maybe the Chipotle red shafts will grow on me but I like either dark or drab colored rods.

 

[steveid]

I'll risk sounding really silly by saying but I would have the Sage Igniter 13'6" in either an 8 or 9 but I can't handle the color.

I've only ever had one brightly colored graphite rod, a Sage VT-2 I think they were called. Bright blue and the tip was way too soft which made selling it easy. Maybe the Chipotle red shafts will grow on me but I like either dark or drab colored rods.

I have an Igniter, and it is a very, very dark red. Almost brown at a glance. You should give one a go.

Peled, I have cast the H3D in 9 weight, and the Igniter in 7 weight. I own a Salt HD in 10 weight.

If I were getting a 9 weight, which I will sooner or later, it would be the Igniter or a Salt HD. I really liked the H3D in 9 weight, and it would certainly make a great rod. The Igniter in 7 weight is a very potent rod, and very powerful for how light in the hand it is. The reel seat on it is so, so nice. Finish wise, the Sage feels like a $900 rod. The H3 series reel seats feel like cheap plastic, and I’m not into the granular matte paint feel on the blank.

However, I have read such good things about the Salt HD, specifically in 9 weight, that I may lean that direction. I do prefer the larger guide sets that the Salt HD series comes with, and I find my 10 weight is very forgiving of casting errors. Timing can quickly get off-kilter when I guide is excitedly hurrying you to drop your fly as fast as you can at the incoming permit when you’re only halfway through the back cast.

 

[Ard]

Hi Stevie,

Maybe I will, I try to stay current with their technology and it's the latest & greatest. I went to town last week and stopped by the fly shop hoping they would have one but no luck there. Maybe the shop in Wasilla will have some single hand models, the color will be the same I guess.

 

[Peled]

Stevied, Salt HD was on top of my list till I cast it. I prefer the original Salt. Salt HD reminds me Scott Meridian in a way, and I do not like soft catapult profile of the rod. Therefore I not so much excited about Sage Salt HD, X, Scott S4S, Meridian, etc. There is some exceptions in the models though. Did browse information in the net about Ignitor and Helios and the following concerns about each of the rods:
Helios 3 - dealing with the strong wind (9 and 10 weight I need mostly for sea fishing)
Ignitor - it will remind HD and\or X in action

 

[sweetandsalt]

Peled, While I anticipate Ignitor and I know S HD both have a good bit more lower taper power than X, X does not have one of those Meridian or Orvis type tips, much sharper and quicker recovering. Also in fairness, and I like you favor my SALT#9, I fish it with RIO Permit (eventually to be replaced with DC Flats Pro) rendering it a defacto 10-weight. My saltwater guide friend was gifted an H3#10 and has already broken it. Despite its dark red paint, I too preferer ONE black or X dark green, I would look to test the Ignitor, you too Ard. You might look at the T&T Exocett too.

 

[Peled]

S&S, I tested Exocett couple of times (10 and 12), very nice rod. Liked it more than old Horizon and in the race it will be ahead of Meridian or Salt HD, but still Ignitor and H3 around
Heard from my friend that H3 in 12 weight did very well on big fish in Indian ocean, could be your friend was just a bit unlucky with his 10 weight.
Rod color doesn't spook me Plus Ignitor has got noble red.
Seems I'm close for blind purchase of …, hm, still not sure Will see what another day brings

 

[sweetandsalt]

My friend is very tough on rods, he's fishing every day weather permits out of a Contender center console in roly-poly seas hooking up with multiple false albacore + blues and bass every day and fighting them hard. Those Indian Ocean GTs do test tackle to the max no doubt. You have not mentioned the Loomis NRX/Asquith rods, usually near the top of saltwater types lists?

And based on my only Ignitor experience, with the 5-weight, it is very different from the X taper.

 

[steveid]

Agreed that X and Igniter have distinctly different tapers. I have an X 896. It’s a great rod. Awesome Bonefish rod and I caught a fair number of juvenile tarpon with it this summer. It casts with finesse, but can generate line speed. It might be in my quiver when I go back to a windy salt flat, but it will likely get superseded by an Igniter or Salt HD. Those are two rods purpose built to get flies in the water in the toughest of flats conditions.

Igniter definitely feels like a rod that can pick up and put down some line quickly, whereas the X feels much more like a rod that can make perfect presentations all day long and not wear you out. I love the feel of the X rods, and that’s why I own three of them.

I still need to cast my Igniter with 7 weight Rio DC Bonefish and 7 weight Rio Flats Pro to see what I prefer. I think it has the horsepower to deliver size 4 and smaller Bonefish flies, even in the wind.

I guess in summation I would say the X fishes with feel, and then power. The Igniter fishes with power, and then feel. The choice would depend on where you’re fishing and what conditions you fish in.

 

[Peled]

Steveid, for 10 weight main battle area is tropical seafishing. Often wind, strong fish, could be heavy, bulk flies. At the moment I do not have 10 weight at all. For 9 weight situation is different, it is not only tropical seafishing, but some river. Here I have Sage Salt original and guess Ignitor might be too close in action and something with different profile could make a good set.
S&S, you are right, Loomis makes great stuff, and I like NRX. Could be contender, just want to check what is available from "latest & greatest".
Have no idea how Asquith compare to NRX. If the same - should be exellent rod, although price tag bites... Also outside US warranty of Loomis is far from decent, to say at least.

 

[steveid]

For a 10 weight flats rod, I would want all of the power I could find. I really enjoy my 10 weight Salt HD, but it sounds like you may be a contender for the Igniter. Although the Orvis H3’s are nice, my personal tastes align with the Sage rods.

 

[Peled]

OK, had a chance to cast Sage Ignitor, Method and ONE. Unfortunately in 6 weight, not in 10. Without writing too much I would say that S&S is right that Ignitor works more by butt section compare to Method. I like when rod works evenly thought the whole length or more by upper part. With those I do better in hitting the target.
I did not like Sage move from ONE to X and from Salt to Salt HD (this one particular). Even difference between Method and Ignitor big and noticeable for me it is easier to swallow than between two above mentioned.

Now I'm turning a bit more to consider Orvis H3, couples of facts to find if anyone could help. Is Helios 3D at least as fast as Loomis NRX and not softer and is the breakage rate high ?

 

[JDR]

This is a fascinating thread to follow. You gentlemen are talking about rods and fishing situations that are far from my world of flashy trout. But reading, and watching your thinking process while you make your selection is quite instructive. Thanks for everyone who has contributed and made this thread so entertaining.

 

[sweetandsalt]

Without writing too much I would say that S&S is right that Ignitor works more by butt section compare to Method. I like when rod works evenly thought the whole length or more by upper part. With those I do better in hitting the target. I did not like Sage move from ONE to X and from Salt to Salt HD (this one particular). Even difference between Method and Ignitor big and noticeable for me it is easier to swallow than between two above mentioned.

My description was Igniter is more progressive than Method, yes the tip flexes relatively more but hardly soft of weakly...still the jury is out for me as I've not sampled the heavier line weights yet.

Sage is interesting. They make/sell more high end, high performance rods than any other rod maker and enjoy a dedicated following of anglers that will not fish anything but Sage while others resent and/or detest Sage...the company and rods. Personally, not being a brand loyalist by nature, I have fished Sage rods since the mid 1980's but as then and now fish lots of other rods from both big and small makers...I enjoy specialized diversity.

Sage model lines which generally run about 5 years develop a following. When a new replacement series is introduced some Sageophiles jump on it like a dog on a fresh bone but inevitably there are those who like the earlier model better. I met a very fine angler/gentleman at a bonefish camp last spring who fishes Sage rods all over the world. He has tried all the new ones but maintains the Xi3 were the best ever and has a stash of blanks to keep him going...indefinitely. I know another great casting bonefisher who sincerely believes, not without reason, that the TCX 9'/#7 is the ONLY brilliant #7...ever!

For me it is not so black and white. I distinctly prefer my 9'/#5 ONE over same size X but love 8 1/2'/#5 X as a complimentary, very different rod. I don't own either but think X 9'/#8 is much nicer that its ONE equivalent. I have test cast SALT HD but not beside my original SALT#9...I like mine a lot but some others not so much. And so on. My SALT#9 mounted with Allen Omega and RIO Permit is my dedicated flats outfit for deeper flats big bones or permit. Off Montauk I've been fishing Loomis CrossCurrent GLX#9 and more recently, Douglas SKY#9. Three very fine but very different 9-weights. Many of my core kit rods include counterpoints; I fish Method#6 and NRX#6 for example. New to me is Igniter#5 and what it does most for me is inspire me to experience Igniter#'s 7 & 8. I need another 8-weight like hole in the head as I already have in 9'/#8 flats specific rods NRX, Stickman T8, Hardy ProAxis and more but I yearn to test Igniter#8 come Edison in January. I don't own any Sage 8-weights, what's wrong with me.

 

[Peled]

S&S, I would agree with the man from bonefish camp on Xi3, very good one. Regret sold mine Xi3 #9 in the past.
Hmm, counterpoints you say...? there is Method #9 at a good price, that one I could live with, but will it be too close to Salt or Helios 3D will be a better pair.
But first I need to sort #10, as here the gap is...

You do not have Sage #8, well I do not have any #8, just this size is not needed

 

[sweetandsalt]

Peled, Where do you live and where do you fish these rods?

 

[Peled]

Central & South America from Cuba to Argentina, Indian ocean, Middle East.