Sage Dart 0wt or Orvis Superfine 1wt advice

[texasrimfirenut]

Gentlemen, I am wanting a new rod/setup.

I have an Orvis Superfine Carbon in 3wt now. I also have a TFO 1wt.

Of course I have larger rods but these are my two smallest.

In the winter we have smaller stickers ... rainbows that is.

My most favorite fishing is bream fishing in creeks, small rivers and ponds.

I'd rather catch 50 bream on a lightweight rod than 5 large bass on a bigger rod.

I have mostly Orvis stuff and am pleased.

I keep thinking the Sage is a 0wt so it would be even more fun than the 1wt Orvis. Maybe not?

I am sure Sage is a fine rod, have no doubts there but I have never used one. Trying one out is not an option. I called fly shops in the Dallas area and none had the Dart in a 0wt. I called Sage, they don't know of anyone either.

Trying to get some advice and different reasoning here.

My thinking: The 0wt is lighter and I have never had a Sage rod. I think I would like it. The Orvis is 1/2 the price and I don't know if I would tell much of a difference between the 0 and 1 ... would I.

Anyway, any input would be appreciated.

 

[steveid]

Truthfully, I have no experience with rods under 3 weight. I see thee 00's, 0's, .5's and the 1's and wonder if there is much actual difference that can be perceived by human hands when fishing. Can one discern the differences is performance/feel in rods at that weight the way that we can with 5 weights and 8 weights? I truly don't know the answer to that question.

My buddy has a Dart 3 weight and loves it. Undoubtedly it is a fine rod. I've yet to hear a bad review about it. I've also heard good reviews about the SuperFine series, and it's one of the few Orvis rods that I'm interested in. Another possibility may be the TFO Finesse, which I recently saw in a post by Red's Fly Shop.

 

[isaiah20]

My thoughts are fast action vs medium. I’d take the medium action over fast for fish on “fun” factor. Even if it is a line weight heavier.


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[texasrimfirenut]

Thanks guys I appreciate your observations. They are appreciated.

 

[cooutlaw]

You are looking at two very different animals, The Orvis and TFO that you are accustomed to are full flexing and very smooth slower action rods. The Dart, is designed as specialty small creek fast rod for throwing "Dart" like casts, far faster and far more reserve power. The Dart is actually recommended to be used in conjunction with RIO Creek lines, which are weighted slightly heavy (perhaps 1/2 weight heavy) and attuned to maximize the Dart's action. However, a "0" or "1" weight can only be so fast.

This is where personal preference comes into play, if you enjoy full flexing, slower rods, then I don't think the Dart would fall into your wheelhouse. If you are looking for a faster, specialty, creek rod as an alternative or addition to your existing quiver, then it might be of consideration.

I personally like both types of actions for small water, I own both rod types, but I will also add, and you already have experience in lower weight rods; there are certain limitations to the mass of payload, and conditions under which, a light line rod can perform, this becomes amplified the lower the line weight goes. Personally, I have found very little distinction between 2wt and under configurations- they are all equally light in hand and fun to fish, and as such, prefer the flexibility and greater fish-ability a 2wt+ line offers. I have found the 1wt, 0 wt, 00 wt, 000 wt's to be more a novelty than utilitarian. My opinion only, your mileage may vary, for whatever it's worth.

 

[texasrimfirenut]

Good observations and things to think about. You input is much appreciated.

I think I would lean more toward the 1wt but I keep wondering if there is something special about the Sage rods that I could be missing out on?

Seems like the difference between the weight of the rods might very well be marginal. That rio creek line being a little heavy might make it pretty close to being equal to the one weight.

Kind of thought about the Orvis 1wt superfine with the 1wt rio creek line on it.

I am more about the feel and the play of the smaller fish. I am kind of thinking I am understanding the superfine rod may give me more of that feel. Am I right or missing something? I do understand the Sage is a faster rod.

May if I could just throw them both to compare but that ain't likely.

 

[cooutlaw]

Obviously, the best advice would be to cast many rods, these included, and potentially fish them if available. It may be a scenario worthy of you just figuring out a way to do that, somehow, somewhere, - additionally some online fly fishing purveyors offer a try it first, and will ship you a rod to try out....before buying, one of them does a youtube video on the Dart....might check into it.


Additionally, the RIO creek line on the Orvis 1wt , in my opinion, would be over lining the rod significantly. It's not designed for that type rod action.

I suspect you are in the beginning stages of light line obsession, many have been there, it wont get out of your system until you chase the rods your mind tells you that you need to experience. Your TFO 1 wt. is pretty representative of 1 wt capabilities. If you'd like to replicate that experience then a 1 wt might be appropriate...but out of curiosity, what are you looking to obtain beyond your current TFO 1wt?

If you feel your 3wt is too much rod, and the 1wt TFO isn't quite enough....then you may wish to broaden your search parameters a bit.

 

[texasrimfirenut]

I think in reality I am after as light as I can get and to also get the most fun out of bream fishing. That is what I do the most of.

On the TFO Finesse 1wt I have, I didn't get it to respond well with 1wt WF line. I ended up with a RIO DT 2wt line on that rod.

A number of years ago I had an Orvis 1wt rod that I went brain dead with one day and sold on ebay. It was a 1wt tip flex, fast action rod.

I guess I am just obsessed with going as light as I can go. About to decide maybe there ain't that much difference to notice between the 0 and 1 weight rods. I used to prefer fast action rods but in my older age, I am enjoying slowing down some.

 

[cooutlaw]

OK, so here goes....what you posted info wise helps some and I'll give you some thoughts.....The RIO DT 2wt you are running on your 1wt TFO is actually also a half size heavy....so you are essentially running 2.5 weight line on a 1wt rod, people often run a 2wt DT on a 3wt rod. What this tells me...again my opinion....is that you desire to feel the rod load, perhaps for casting sensation or perhaps for a heavier line to produce closer loading/presentations. Or, as I hinted at earlier, a heavier light line 2wt+, will behave better, mend better, cut through air better, throw larger payload better, handle some wind better, and gives you a bit more mass to do the job than 0wt or 1 wt line. This all said, I doubt you would be happy with a fast light line rod, you will definitely not feel the same loading sensation you are accustomed to, I had a TFO 1wt (sold it), it performed great with a true to weight line, but "great" meant that it did what 1 wts do, which isn't much....10-20 ft casts with size 22's on short leaders. I suspect, and I could be very wrong, that your desire is to catch bream with the lightest possible rod designation, perhaps just to say that's what you do it with, or perhaps because it falsely gives you extra satisfaction that somehow it's a greater accomplishment than doing the same thing with a 2wt. Hey....that's just fine...each to their own....and whatever makes any angler smile bigger, I'm all over and certainly behind anybody seeking fishing fun, but, I will just reiterate, a rod that is optimized to your specific fishing environment will do a better job and accordingly, likely, catch more fish. My point here is this...if your fishing environment works best with a rod throwing a 2wt DT, even if it's on a 1wt rod, then are you really fishing a 1wt rod, and further, if 2wt is optimal for your situation, size of flies, distance, wind,, line control, etc....then why would one need a 0wt or 1wt which might not get the job done as well? I'm an older guy, been doing this over 3/4 of my life, I've been through the light line obsession, I now own rods from 2wt-6wt and every one of them is a fantastic fishing tool, after I got past the 0wt & 1wt obsession, I realized that the label on the rod isn't indicative of it's ability to perform, my 2wts (I own 4 - all fairly high end) are all under 1.75 oz, and they all get the job done, whether in 6'6" configuration or longer....if one was to blindfold you and have you cast rods, could you tell me which rod was the 00-0-1-2 wt? I doubt it...except the 2wt would actually cast with less effort and offer greater versatility mending, roll casting, etc. Just trying to save you some pain and aggravation... I've been there. Lastly, truly lastly, I implore you to go cast any rod you are considering first. Best of luck !! Tight Lines!!

 

[texasrimfirenut]

Hey I really, really do appreciate the time and effort you and others have spent on here helping me come to a conclusion. That takes time and effort and I really am appreciative.

I think I am going to get out my Superfine 3wt, my TFO Finesse 1wt and a custom glass 3wt rod I have and spend some quality time with them. I think if I get excellent play and a fun time catching the bream my goal is already accomplished and I am indeed not accomplishing anything more by getting another light rod. The other point I can really see now is that I probably won't enjoy the fast pace of the Dart. My current roundup of favorite rods would indicate the Dart is not my preferred style.

I think you've really help me realize that I just want a new rod and not that I am going to get anything that changes what I am seeing, feeling and doing now.

Again, thanks a lot. You might have saved me 1K that I might have not been too happy with nor fished very much after the new wore off.

 

[el jefe]

As Sage rods get lighter (i.e., from 1-weight down to 000-weight), the increment between them grows progressively smaller. So there isn't as much difference from a 1 to a 0 as there is from a 2 to a 1.

Also, for fish play feel, go glass.

 

[sweetandsalt]

I can not add anything to cooutlaws thoughtful and expert tiny rod knowledge. I will say though that on my DART, a big, heavy 4-weight (in comparison to a #0) I fish and the rod responds perfectly to an almost true weight RIO Gold and the heavier, front weight biased Creek line does not appeal to me. Also do not confuse sensitivity to smaller fish with the flex profile of a little rod which is more about casting action and timing. Tip responsiveness more than tip flex communicates the sense of what a fish is doing.

 

[texasrimfirenut]

Again, thank you guys very much for the thoughtful answers and knowledge you all have given me.

That does bring up a good question: So what are the main factors that make up sensitivity and feeling of smaller fish, again mainly bream and small stocker trout.

I do plan a trip to Norther New Mexico later this year to catch some cutthroat which I have never done with a guide when I find one.

 

[cooutlaw]

I can not add anything to cooutlaws thoughtful and expert tiny rod knowledge. I will say though that on my DART, a big, heavy 4-weight (in comparison to a #0) I fish and the rod responds perfectly to an almost true weight RIO Gold and the heavier, front weight biased Creek line does not appeal to me. Also do not confuse sensitivity to smaller fish with the flex profile of a little rod which is more about casting action and timing. Tip responsiveness more than tip flex communicates the sense of what a fish is doing.

S&S, as usual, is dead on here. The Dart in 4wt falls "nearer" to a conventional 7'6" 4wt rod, and a more standard duty application of such, the other Dart lower weight models fall a bit more into the specialty small water application spectrum. For his purposes, S&S chose the right rod from the series for his intended water, and it's aligned well to do so. I would add that the smaller weight Darts, utilize a taper design and action profile that lends itself more to "overlining" with the Creek line than would the 4wt version, where it is less necessary for specialized closer presentation. Additionally, Peter Knox (engineer on the Dart series), recommends the creek line for adequate mass to deliver payload close in on the smaller series, but further offers the rod may transform for greater distance with, ready for it?, a DT. The Dart is for sure a rod that varies in personality throughout it's weight classes (I've cast all of them), but, specialization aside, is fairly versatile, IF, you learn it's unique personality and match such to specific fishing situations. Like 0-3wt with creek close in presentation, and DT longer out. The 7'6" 4wt, a fine rod, makes a great "standard" shorter 4wt and is, arguably, the least specialized for small water in the series, but most versatile of the line-up for varied water sizes.

In regard to "feeling" small fish....S&S answered that in his last line....Tip responsiveness communicates communicates fish behavior...regardless of flex profile....all rods have some feeling, some rods have it in spades, some don't. Parking lots and lawns, sadly, are not very telling of this component.

 

[sweetandsalt]

For wat it is worth, to me DART#4 is a specialty small creek rod due to its length and charm at short accurate prestation's. Also Peter Knox was a little disappointed I like the #4, he prefers the 3-weight as the sweet spot. Maybe I made a mistake.

There is a long-standing conception that soft tips and deep flex profile designs represent delicacy and sensitivity. Conversely, it is my experience that such rods tend to absorb the line and fish's motion like a sponge. A super low mass, slender rod like DART with its quick recovering but not "stiff" tip allows you to experience the subtlest and smallest movement of you fish. I imagine though I have not cast it, Winston's Pure 7 1/2'/#3 would be an optimal cross-comparison to DART. Both I suspect would have sharper reflexes and sensitivities compared to Superfine.

 

[taylorreels]

Again, thank you guys very much for the thoughtful answers and knowledge you all have given me.

That does bring up a good question: So what are the main factors that make up sensitivity and feeling of smaller fish, again mainly bream and small stocker trout.

I do plan a trip to Norther New Mexico later this year to catch some cutthroat which I have never done with a guide when I find one.

We are in New Mexico. If looking for a guide Taos Fly Shop or the Reel Life in Santa Fe are great.

 

[texasrimfirenut]

We are in New Mexico. If looking for a guide Taos Fly Shop or the Reel Life in Santa Fe are great.

Ok thanks! Yeah I was thinking somewhere around Taos. Last time we went out that way we decided to come back and camp somewhere in that "ring" from Taos, to Angerlfire, on up and around back to Taos.

Read where they have some cutthroat, a species I have never caught.

Want to give that a try. Small creeks and rivers type fishing.

Wonder around when the best time to go is?

 

[taylorreels]

Ok thanks! Yeah I was thinking somewhere around Taos. Last time we went out that way we decided to come back and camp somewhere in that "ring" from Taos, to Angerlfire, on up and around back to Taos.

Read where they have some cutthroat, a species I have never caught.

Want to give that a try. Small creeks and rivers type fishing.

Wonder around when the best time to go is?

The Rio Costilla area opens July 1st. It is easy access and you will catch Rio Grande Cutties! Plus they have massive herds of Elk and the views are stunning!

 

[texasrimfirenut]

The Rio Costilla area opens July 1st. It is easy access and you will catch Rio Grande Cutties! Plus they have massive herds of Elk and the views are stunning!

Thank you sir, I will look into that.

 

[mka]

Gentlemen, I am wanting a new rod/setup.

I have an Orvis Superfine Carbon in 3wt now. I also have a TFO 1wt.

Of course I have larger rods but these are my two smallest.

In the winter we have smaller stickers ... rainbows that is.

My most favorite fishing is bream fishing in creeks, small rivers and ponds.

I'd rather catch 50 bream on a lightweight rod than 5 large bass on a bigger rod.

I have mostly Orvis stuff and am pleased.

I keep thinking the Sage is a 0wt so it would be even more fun than the 1wt Orvis. Maybe not?

I am sure Sage is a fine rod, have no doubts there but I have never used one. Trying one out is not an option. I called fly shops in the Dallas area and none had the Dart in a 0wt. I called Sage, they don't know of anyone either.

Trying to get some advice and different reasoning here.

My thinking: The 0wt is lighter and I have never had a Sage rod. I think I would like it. The Orvis is 1/2 the price and I don't know if I would tell much of a difference between the 0 and 1 ... would I.

Anyway, any input would be appreciated.

Sounds to me like you have an "itch" for something other than Orvis and are curious about Sage? I say go ahead and scratch that itch and pick up the new Sage Dart...can't go wrong with it in my view. I have Orvis and Sage rods and have enjoyed both through the years. I do have an Orvis Superfine 1wt that I have used for many years now...it's a Trout Bum model, but don't use it as much as I once did. I have found a 3 or 4wt rod is just as much fun handling small trout, yet has more versatility on various types of streams versus the 1wt rod. The Sage Dart 7'6" 3wt would my choice, but I fish different environments than you.