On reading various reviews and critiques of rods, one point of focus seems to be the cork handle. I was kind of surprised that a poster on another thread even mentioned getting rid of an otherwise fine rod (Aetos) solely because of the poor quality of the cork. Apparently cork is expensive, and I guess it is hard to get good quality, so I started wondering why cork is the pretty much exclusive material for fly rod handles. I first asked myself that when I bought a keiryu rod that has some sort of hard rubber coating on the handle; I don't notice any disadvantage of that material when using that rod. I also have a bunch of spinning rods and bait rods with different materials (foam, even wood) for the handles. I think I can see why a soft foam isn't useful for a fly rod, and wood might be too heavy. But I think whatever is on the keiryu rod would be fine. Any thoughts?
Why cork?
- Thread starter gpwhitejr
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mike_r
Well-known member
‘Cause good cork just feels right!
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
silver creek
Well-known member
Cork is unique and has properties that are perfect for rod handles.
Scanning Electron Micrograph of cork
Cork is:
1. Light in weight - cork cells are hollow.
2. Insulating - it is not cold in freezing weather and not hot in hot weather. It is so insulating that cork is used as material for the drags on some of the finest saltwater reels. The heat resistance and compressibility are unique for a natural material.
3. Hydrophobic - it actively repels water.
4. It is partially compressible - it molds itself to our grip.
But good cork is expensive. Cork can be harvested only every 9 years so the demand for good cork outstrips the supply. Therefore fine cork is a sign that the fly rod is of high quality. If I see a poor quality cork handle, this is what goes through my mind: "If a company will go cheap on the cork handle which is so obvious, what other cheap materials are they using that are not so obvious?"
When I buy a rod, the quality of the cork is one of the things I check and I would never buy a fly rod that had foam or some other synthetic material for the handle.
Scanning Electron Micrograph of cork
Cork is:
1. Light in weight - cork cells are hollow.
2. Insulating - it is not cold in freezing weather and not hot in hot weather. It is so insulating that cork is used as material for the drags on some of the finest saltwater reels. The heat resistance and compressibility are unique for a natural material.
3. Hydrophobic - it actively repels water.
4. It is partially compressible - it molds itself to our grip.
But good cork is expensive. Cork can be harvested only every 9 years so the demand for good cork outstrips the supply. Therefore fine cork is a sign that the fly rod is of high quality. If I see a poor quality cork handle, this is what goes through my mind: "If a company will go cheap on the cork handle which is so obvious, what other cheap materials are they using that are not so obvious?"
When I buy a rod, the quality of the cork is one of the things I check and I would never buy a fly rod that had foam or some other synthetic material for the handle.
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spm
Well-known member
Thanks for asking this, gp; I have often wondered the same thing. I had always assumed cork was better, but never had a definitive answer as to why. Thanks, Silver.
steve
steve
trout trekker
Well-known member
That sounds close to how I feel about them, it's one of the things that keeps me from adding one to my line up.
As with several older T.F.O.'s I think it's a more of a public plea to the manufacturers to increase the grade of the cork used on future production runs, welcoming what reasonable cost that would be associated with that upgrade. In the early days of T.F.O. I had a couple of their grips dissolve while I was wet wading. They literally started to crumble and my casting hand turned almost a jaundice yellow because whatever type of bonding agent they used in their cork filler had liquified. By days end, with the cork filler all but gone, the cork grip looked as if Fido had been using it for a teething ring. It took nearly a decade before I was willing to consider any T.F.O. product again.
The type of cork used on new rods doesn't need to be clear high grade rings, there are cork composites being used on some rods or just as trim rings.
I do think that once I became accustomed to higher grade finishing on my top shelf rods the level of my rod snob appeal increased proportionally. We feel the difference in grips, if not, certainly our eye picks up on the flaws. For the record, I'm not wild about the reel seat on the Aetos either. That's not to say that I think the rods worth less, only that if it were dressed from head to toe with higher grade components, that finish level would better represent the quality of the blank.
To me, the build out on the Aetos is like buying a top shelf blank for a home build, then trying to save money on the build by using inferior grade ( to those used by the factory build ) components.
While this thread tackles cork, my mood toward the build and component quality of any rod that I consider buying holds relatively true in comparison with price. I am very satisfied with some builds that exceed my expectations, not so much with others. I have under $200 Cabela's rods that have nicer corks and wraps than some of my top shelf $600 plus American brand rods. On the other hand I have two rods made under the same top shelf label, in the same South Korean factory, that should have roughly the same finish quality, but don't. One looks like the work of a master, the other looks like it was finished by someone on their first day on the job. Maybe that factory is simply trying to build too many rods for several companies, or the lesser of the two rods could've been finished on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon.
Getting back on subject, clear fine cork is a tradition. I'd be fine with artistically designed cork composites. I like what T.F.O. did with the line weight identifier rings on the grips of the Mangroves. It's artistic and useful. Beulah has some interesting ideas too, but I'd like to see them elaborate more on the theme.
Dave
wthorpe
Well-known member
Silver's answer is very informative. mike r's answer is right on point too!
There are some things in life that simply provide a level of immeasurable pleasure and satisfaction that are irreplaceable and cannot be substituted with anything less - they are what makes life worth living;
A good bird dog, aged Whiskey, great craft beers, A finely crafted shotgun, Great fly rods, Special Pick-up trucks, A woman with poise, stature, and assets that takes your breath away, A quality watch, The laugh of a child, the relationship with parents and grandparents, good boots, sunrises and sunsets, a warm fire, raindrops on a roof, friendships, family, faith, and traditions, to name just a few.......
In the sporting world, traditions pay homage to time honored rituals and ways, to respect those before us, and to the propagation of passing things on to future generations, these things stand the test of time.....a fly rod without quality cork is akin (to me) to a synthetic stocked automatic shotgun, it still gets the job done, but there is absolutely no history, honor, value added appreciation, nor tradition to be found, no connection to our past and nothing irreplaceable...just a bland substitute.
As for me, I'll thankfully keep my quality cork.....and smile every time I use it knowing why it's worth appreciating.
A good bird dog, aged Whiskey, great craft beers, A finely crafted shotgun, Great fly rods, Special Pick-up trucks, A woman with poise, stature, and assets that takes your breath away, A quality watch, The laugh of a child, the relationship with parents and grandparents, good boots, sunrises and sunsets, a warm fire, raindrops on a roof, friendships, family, faith, and traditions, to name just a few.......
In the sporting world, traditions pay homage to time honored rituals and ways, to respect those before us, and to the propagation of passing things on to future generations, these things stand the test of time.....a fly rod without quality cork is akin (to me) to a synthetic stocked automatic shotgun, it still gets the job done, but there is absolutely no history, honor, value added appreciation, nor tradition to be found, no connection to our past and nothing irreplaceable...just a bland substitute.
As for me, I'll thankfully keep my quality cork.....and smile every time I use it knowing why it's worth appreciating.
Although I do enjoy a quality cork handle, I wouldn’t be opposed to a handle made of carbon, as we have seen on some of the Edge offerings. The day may come when cork isn’t available, and carbon handles can offer many of the same properties that Silver listed.
Hopefully nothing changes for a long while. If it does, I’ll still find enjoyment in quality rods.
Hopefully nothing changes for a long while. If it does, I’ll still find enjoyment in quality rods.
falcon53
Well-known member
Really nice cork is beautiful and traditional on fly rods. I would not be opposed too much with a carbon fiber handle on say a saltwater rod used for stripers in the Northeast salt. However when someone looks and handles a fly rod with tight blemish free cork its part of tradition and a thing of beauty. Great cork handles stand out. Winston and T&T come to mind.
There is nothing worse than bad porous cork on a rod handle on a otherwise good rod.
There is nothing worse than bad porous cork on a rod handle on a otherwise good rod.
hubby11
Well-known member
Cork, shmork.
I get that quality cork is a wonderful thing, but I don't have the $$ for most rods that sport such higher grades. For rods in my price range, I would much rather have a synthetic than some of the cork handles I see that seem to be more filler than cork. I've little doubt that modern technologies exist to produce a product that rivals the natural properties of cork.
Feel free to pile on.
I get that quality cork is a wonderful thing, but I don't have the $$ for most rods that sport such higher grades. For rods in my price range, I would much rather have a synthetic than some of the cork handles I see that seem to be more filler than cork. I've little doubt that modern technologies exist to produce a product that rivals the natural properties of cork.
Feel free to pile on.
No piling at all. Every member of this forum is entitled to respect in their opinion. Each to their own in preferences.Cork, shmork.
I get that quality cork is a wonderful thing, but I don't have the $$ for most rods that sport such higher grades. For rods in my price range, I would much rather have a synthetic than some of the cork handles I see that seem to be more filler than cork. I've little doubt that modern technologies exist to produce a product that rivals the natural properties of cork.
Feel free to pile on.
I will say though, coming from a guy that has sold an enormous collection of rods in the resale market over the last few years, the price point thing doesn't hold much water. For the cost of inexpensive new rods, a consumer today, on the auction site and other places, can buy a top quality rod in the resale market for peanuts and often much less than they would pay for a new inexpensive rod. Sadly, I've sold really top end rods for ridiculously low prices. Savvy buyers, even on a tight budget, can purchase truly high end gear in the used market for a steal.
silver creek
Well-known member
I'm NOT going to pile on. What I will say is that in a free market, companies will make what their customers demand and expect at a given price point. Until customers begin to buy fly rods with synthetic grips in your price range, you will continue to see cork grips rather than synthetic grips.Cork, shmork.
I get that quality cork is a wonderful thing, but I don't have the $$ for most rods that sport such higher grades. For rods in my price range, I would much rather have a synthetic than some of the cork handles I see that seem to be more filler than cork. I've little doubt that modern technologies exist to produce a product that rivals the natural properties of cork.
Feel free to pile on.
As to whether a synthetic can rival cork, I suppose someone could try the synthetic that has replaced real cork in the less expensive wines. I doubt that foam is the answer. I don't think it will last as long a cork. Cork can also be easily modified by the home builder with just sand paper. Is there a material that has all the properties of cork with no disadvantages? I doubt it.
The advantage of cork is that it is a material that has a supply chain that is already set up. For a new material, one would have to not only find the right synthetic (if it is available) but set up the logistics to buy the raw material and shape or mold it into the correct shape for a fly rod. PLUS, and here's the real challenge - it has to be at a price point that makes it cheaper than cork because it is ONLY going to be used in the lower end fly rods with slimmer profit margins which means a limited sales market. Who or what company is going to invest in that? Who is going to invest in the machinery and logistics for that?
I have seen weird stuff tried in fly rods. Anyone remember the Dorber UltraWave rod? It was an asymmetrical fly rod with a curved blank that claimed to have more power than the standard straight symmetrical fly rod.
This is what Ross Purnell wrote about the Dorber UltraWave on pg 20 of Fly Fisherman Magazine (Feb/Mar 2011):
"…fly casting isn't merely the perfection of sending a fly hurling forward toward its target. Fly casting is doubly difficult due to the mirror image backcast we sometimes ignore, but is the prerequisite to the great forward cast and delivery. This is the major problem with the reverse-s-curved UltraWave rod. ….while a specific curve in the rod shaft gives you an extra "oomph!" on the forward cast, it also gives you and equal. "ugh!" on the backcast. …whatever advantages you gain from this shape on the forward cast is a hindrance on your backcast. …..Under actual fishing conditions, most of the time the distances are too short to take advantage of the curve in the butt section. Another problem with the forward oriented rod is that if you rotate the UltraWave even slightly during the stroke, and take the rod out of plane, you immediately notice an array of awkward problems… (The rod is) definitely on the heavy side considering that the rod is a 2 piece (at 3.7 ounces) … and several competitive brands have similar 4 piece rods under 3 ounces."
Needless to say that the company that makes that rod still has it's web site "under construction" 8 years later.
The Global dorbeR Group
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There are other great options - I made two grips out of birch bark rings and wrapping rattan over poor quality cork or a shaped piece of lightweight wood works great. The birch grips were heavier (not a big deal), had a different feel as they weren't nearly as soft, and were a TON more work. The rattan feels great and is a great look. They are more work, though less than the birch grips. I've only had them on lighter weight rods. Never had a synthetic grip.
I thumbs up what Silver said, and cork feels great in the hand wet or dry, cold or hot. Seems the right material.
I thumbs up what Silver said, and cork feels great in the hand wet or dry, cold or hot. Seems the right material.
bumble54
Well-known member
I put a golf club grip on one rod many years ago, blisters, had foam and plastic grips on various rods over the years, I prefer cork.
The beauty of a cork grip to me is that I can easily modify it to suit my hand, not all grips are equal, and neither are hands.
Plus it just feels right.
The beauty of a cork grip to me is that I can easily modify it to suit my hand, not all grips are equal, and neither are hands.
Plus it just feels right.
mjkirshner
Well-known member
I am pretty sure that was me. Lemme 'splain. It was not so much the poor quality of the cork as the fact that the pitting was positioned such that it felt annoying, so I would change my grip to avoid it, and that threw off my cast. It was not strictly the quality of the cork, but how the low quality affected my ability to use the rod. In fact, I initially posted a positive review of the rod, commenting that the pitting itself did not bother me, but that I wished they hadn't put filler in, as the filler was degrading and making the handle feel gritty. Without the filler, the handle had a "vintage" look that was not unpleasant. However, after all the filler had crumbled and fallen out, I began to notice how annoying the pitting in the cork felt. I suspect that it was positioned that way intentionally when the rod was made, as I only felt it when casting left-handed. Casting right-handed, the pitting was not really noticeable, so they probably turned the cork that way, figuring that most people would cast right-handed and not notice it. But I cast left-handed at least half the time, so I decided to get rid of the rod rather than put up with the annoyance.
That said, cork looks good. I had a rod with a synthetic cork grip, and it did not look or feel as good as natural cork. I have seen rods with rubber grips, and while they may perform fine, there is something lacking visually. My best rod - a Scott Meridian - has excellent quality cork, and it is a pleasure to look at and to cast. A cork fly rod handle is like a leather jacket: you can get a substitute that functions just as well, but it is still a substitute for something that inherently seems better.
Edited to add: I don't understand the cost issue, as I cannot imagine that better cork would add more than a few dollars to the cost of the rod. I would gladly have paid $10 or $20 more for the Aetos to have a nicer handle, and I wouldn't have gotten rid of it.
lepirate
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mjkrishner..'' A cork fly rod handle is like a leather jacket: you can get a substitute that functions just as well, but it is still a substitute for something that inherently seems better.''
Love that.. I have a few old rods and not sure the cork would have got by the 'fillers' on modern rods but it works just fine without.. The cracks and channels that occur naturally in cork are stable, filler isn't...
Dave
Love that..
I have a few old rods and not sure the cork would have got by the 'fillers' on modern rods but it works just fine without.. The cracks and channels that occur naturally in cork are stable, filler isn't...Dave
duker
Well-known member
Well, why not cork?
Silver said it best in his original post. While I don't mind the EVA grips on my spinning rods, there's something about having a nice cork grip on a fly rod you like fishing. Nothing else feels like it.
But, as others have pointed out, there's cork and there's cork. A nice cork handle is a lovely thing; a crappy one is something I'd just as soon throw in the garbage than fish.
Scott
Silver said it best in his original post. While I don't mind the EVA grips on my spinning rods, there's something about having a nice cork grip on a fly rod you like fishing. Nothing else feels like it.
But, as others have pointed out, there's cork and there's cork. A nice cork handle is a lovely thing; a crappy one is something I'd just as soon throw in the garbage than fish.
Scott
karstopo
Well-known member
I don’t mind cork grips with filler or with missing filler or maybe they never had much filler. I notice the shape of the grip much more than the condition or quality of the cork. I’d be fine if the makers just skipped the cork filler.
I think I’d give a carbon fiber fly rod grip a try. I paddle with carbon fiber kayak paddles and that material is comfortable to hold. So are fiberglass kayak paddles comfortable to grip.
I think I’d give a carbon fiber fly rod grip a try. I paddle with carbon fiber kayak paddles and that material is comfortable to hold. So are fiberglass kayak paddles comfortable to grip.