Which 4wt Winston: TMF, Pure or BIIT?

[Matti]

Hello,

I’m looking for 4wt rod for dry flies and general small creek use. I have BIIIX 9´6 6wt for bigger streamers and nymph rigs, so I can use that when the 4wt is not enough.

I have narrowed it down to these three models, but I’m undecided which:
- TMF 8´
- Pure 8´
- BIIT 8’6

BIIT is the anniversary model available only for pre-order, so I guess I have roughly one month to decide. Since I can’t cast any of these before purchasing, your comments would be highly appreciated.

 

[sweetandsalt]

Opinions will undoubtedly vary but I like both 8'/#4 Pure and AIR which I intend to cast together again this season.

 

[seattlesetters]

While this may come off as strange, I would have to recommend the rod of these three I like the least (and by a considerable margin), the 480-4 Pure.

I really, really like rods 8’ long for small creeks, and while I’d much rather fish with the TMF, its two-piece configuration absolutely eliminates it from my consideration. I am almost always wearing a backpack and hiking with a couple of tubed rods while creek fishing, and long tubes are a pain to deal with. No thank you.

While IMHO the 486 BIIt is easily the best of these three, it is a bit more substantial than I like to use on creeks.

 

[osseous]

Be sure you are ok with the handle on the Pure- it is extremely short. It casts beautifully, but if your hand is rubbing the reel seat, or your finger is contacting the hook keeper- none of that matters.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[sweetandsalt]

This class of creek rods are not core to my kit. Therefore are also a weakness in my collection. I compared the 8'/#4 Pure to its similar AIR sibling on the indoor pond at Edison. I slightly favored the AIR, both of which I will compare again while in Montana. The other rod I wanted to compare them to (well, the 8'2" Little ONE is gone...) is Scott's 8'4"/#4 GS, missing from Scott's demos at the Show. Oh, and osseous, I've begged rod makers to eliminate the useless and annoying hook keeper from all their rods, but no, not on trout models.

 

[proheli]

A local shop has both the Pure 804 and TMF. I haven't cast them, but I've waggled them both side by side a few times. The obvious things are:

1) Both are soft.

2) The TMF is slightly softer, with a smidge more glass feel. On the stiff/fast scale, it is a 4, and the Pure is a 5. (The Air is 6, and so on.)

2) The TMF does not seem like it has much of a "Butt" section. It is a light, lightly evenly increasing flex all the way through the rod. The Pure has just a touch more at the bottom. The TMF might be too soft in the butt for me, but its also why I like Winston (904 Pure, 906 Air), because the flex carries down through the handle. If my fishing was all under 20-25' I'd probably look at the TMF. It is not going to air-out and give you precision at 35-40' like a 376 Dart - at least I wouldn't think so. The 376 Pure has a steeper taper than the TMF.

The name of the place is Bill Jacksons in Clearwater FL. The Fish Hawk in Atlanta might have both too.

 

[NCAndy]

I have the TMF, one of the early versions in IM6. Other than being a two piece I still feel it is an outstanding smaller water dry fly rod and it is considered a light 4wt. I have an 8'6" B3LS 4wt that is also very nice but I have not had the chance to compare it to the Pure, Air, or BIIt. I've read reviews on the Air 8'6" 3wt and it might be worth checking out. I tend to use my 3wt rods here in WNC more than my 4wt, and generally will use the 3wt over the 4wt for dry fly work on smaller water everywhere unless conditions dictate otherwise.

As for length on streams and creeks, I like the longer rods in the winter but once the leaves open up and the branches hang lower I go to the 8' or 7'6" rods. It saves me some frustration and lost flys using shorter rods here in the Smokies in the summer.

 

[moucheur2003]

I have a TMF. I have never tried the other two, but I have either owned or cast a number of other 4 weights in the 7' 9" to 8' 6" range. Among all the 4's I've tried, the TMF is the softest, deepest flexing model. Tom Morgan himself says it's really more of a 3 1/2 weight than a 4. It excels at very delicate, precise presentations of dry flies to spooky, selective spring creek trout at short to medium distances on glassy spring creeks -- which is why Tom designated it as his favorite. But for more varied conditions, a more versatile rod would probably be a better choice.

 

[ixoye]

For dry flies and general small creek use, I would not hesitate to choose TMF, if you intend to use the rod for more versatile use, i recommend "The Staff Of Moses", Pure is available for many years to come, TMF and BIIT probably not.

 

[moucheur2003]

For dry flies and general small creek use, I would not hesitate to choose TMF, if you intend to use the rod for more versatile use, i recommend "The Staff Of Moses", Pure is available for many years to come, TMF and BIIT probably not.

(He means the BIIT)

 

[proheli]

I have a TMF. I have never tried the other two, but I have either owned or cast a number of other 4 weights in the 7' 9" to 8' 6" range. Among all the 4's I've tried, the TMF is the softest, deepest flexing model. Tom Morgan himself says it's really more of a 3 1/2 weight than a 4. It excels at very delicate, precise presentations of dry flies to spooky, selective spring creek trout at short to medium distances on glassy spring creeks -- which is why Tom designated it as his favorite. But for more varied conditions, a more versatile rod would probably be a better choice.

I think moucheur2003 has something noteworthy here. I've got the 904 Pure, which is not a fast or heavy 4wt, but it is a diesel truck compared to the TMF. My glass rod is a 3 1/2 weight, and again, there is a long long way between it and the fairly soft 904. It makes me surprised the 804 Pure is a 4 weight. The TMF and the 804 Pure must be very line senstaive. (i'm not trying to exclude the Biit in this convo, just no experience with it at all.

I can see the TMF as a 4wt, but only if the line is like triangle taper, and when you only have 15-20 feet of line out, when the line weight really doesn't even matter because differences between light line weights are negligable. Oh, I take it back, I can't see the TMF as a 4 wt at all.

 

[mka]

From a different angle...a new BIIt will only be available for order through end of June and it's extremely difficult to find a used one in good condition these days. If I was wanting a 4wt Winston, that would be my preferred choice just because it's a rare opportunity to own a new IIt. The Pure and TMF are in the regular product offering so there will be plenty of time to pick one of those up in the future.

 

[ixoye]

From a different angle...a new BIIt will only be available for order through end of June and it's extremely difficult to find a used one in good condition these days. If I was wanting a 4wt Winston, that would be my preferred choice just because it's a rare opportunity to own a new IIt. The Pure and TMF are in the regular product offering so there will be plenty of time to pick one of those up in the future.

I think TMF only will be available under this special anniversary year.

From Winston website "as we celebrate Winston’s 90th Anniversary, we find it only fitting to reintroduce the Tom Morgan Favorite."

 

[mka]

I think TMF only will be available under this special anniversary year.

From Winston website "as we celebrate Winston’s 90th Anniversary, we find it only fitting to reintroduce the Tom Morgan Favorite."

Yeah, you're probably right. I was just going by seeing it on their website even after they discontinued taking special orders for WT rods. Even though, I still see mint TMF rods on the used market significantly more than BIIt 8'6" 4wt rods.

 

[ixoye]

Yeah, you're probably right. I was just going by seeing it on their website even after they discontinued taking special orders for WT rods. Even though, I still see mint TMF rods on the used market significantly more than BIIt 8'6" 4wt rods.

Yes you are right, BIIT is considerably less common in the used market, and I think there have been an option to order TMF on special order from Winston for several years.

 

[cooutlaw]

Ok. I'll play. As some here know...small water creek/small river water has become somewhat of a passion of mine as was relayed with my reasoning in my "compare 3 wts. " thread. So with that, I will play devil's advocate somewhat.

I may not share popular opinion here, but even being a long term Winston advocate, and back when the Winston forum held experienced members, when the BIIT 8'6" 4wt "Staff of Moses" hay day was in full swing, I did not personally care for the rod. I felt the rod to be somewhat clubby, heavy even, for it's size, and the taper transition, although far better than BIIX, was somewhat similar to LT and also somewhat hingy and the tip recovery to be average, perhaps slower than some IM6 models even. I owned one, I fished one (a bunch), and I sold it, opting for rods that, I personally (IMO only your mileage may vary), felt were superior. Was the BIIT a bad rod IMO? No. Were there better rods to fill this slot in my quiver? IMO yes. Did it cast well for it's day? Yes. Do newer rods of today's superior taper design and technology cast better? I think they do. Now don't get me wrong, back then it was a nice rod, probably a nice rod still today, BUT, there were rods that came out before and after it's introduction that I liked better in similar configuration. This is also why on another post I wondered if Winston's reintroduction of special classic configurations would be produced with same/similar material to the originals or if the original tapers would be used with modern materials to produce the reintroduced edition rods.

To be fair, many anglers enjoy and seek out classic rods to fish with. I do myself on occasion. Many favor vintage rods and integrate them into their fly fishing experiences and I appreciate this aspect. Bamboo, Winston IM6's, Sage RPL's and LL's, Scott G's, Orvis far & fines, etc. Nothing at all wrong with this...but if you are not seeking a vintage experience, or specifically looking for that, I would argue that there may be better options for a go to 4wt for an everyday rod. Special occasions, sure, your go to 4wt beyond all others? Maybe not.

Same with the TMF - also a very fine rod, but specialized, not an all arounder 4wt.

With all this said; Why the limited search of strictly a 4wt for a creek rod? 3 wts are at their best and many are optimum creek rods.

I will simply leave a list below to take into consideration (both modern and classic rods - not knowing your specific desires) as always - my recommendation is to cast and/or fish as many rods as possible before making a purchase and find the rod best suited to A) You, only you, and your preferences. B) the environments in which it will be fished.

Rods to consider:

Winston 7'6" 3wt Pure & Air
Winston 8' 4wt Pure & Air
Winston BIII LS 3&4 wts, (4wts. potentially still available on discontinued closeout).
Sage Dart 376
Scott GS 773, 843, 883, 844
Scott MMT (Murray Mountain Trout) 6'10" 3wt
Winston WT 7'6" 3wt & 8' 4wt (discontinued but still available Ebay & Dealer stock)
Winston Air 8'6" 3wt
Winston Pure 9' 4wt
Sage X 8'6" 4wt & 7'6" 3wts
Orvis Helios 3- 8'6" 4wt
Sage Mod 8'6" 4wt
T&T Avant 8'6" 4wt
Loomis NRX LP 9' 4wt. & IMX 3&4 wts
Higher end glass rods by various makers 3&4 wts.

USED Market:
Sage LL 379,389,4711 Sage SLT, SP, SPL, TXL, 3&4 wts.
Winston IM6/WT see above.
Scott G/G2 7'7", 8', 8'4" 3&4 wts.
Loomis 3&4wts
Diamondback 3&4wts
Orvis Far & Fines 3&4 wts.

Having a 6wt BIIIX, I make assumption you may have a preference toward Winston (also your post heading), separation between a 3wt/4wt and 6wt is a good gap....which in time most anglers will fill....I'd strongly recommend matching a rod purchase to desired habitat that you are specifically looking to fish most often aside from your 6wt water.

Lastly, IF I could ONLY choose from the three rods you listed, specifically as an all arounder 4wt to fish smaller water.....the Pure would be my preference. That said, the TMF is a specialized rod that everyone should try on a perfect weather dry fly day. The BIIT, I don't miss, but others swear it's next to Valhalla.

Good luck in your search...you've got a lot of casting, fishing, and thinking to do.

 

[trout stalker]

I've had the BIIT and never casted the Pure yet but I own 2 TMF's. I hope I didn't muddy the waters. BTW, The TMF cast nicely with a triangle taper.

 

[sweetandsalt]

cooutlaw is more a Winston aficionado than am I and also more attuned to small water rods than I. So to read his faint praise for 8 1/2'/#4 BIIT being better that same size BIIx (far and away the worst and most uncontrollably wobbly rod of this size I love in my collection) is not saying much. Of course I concur with his best advice to test and select the rod based on the technique and habitat one intends to fish it in most. Also there ay be a significant difference between a rod of any given configuration that is intended to be an all-rounder verses a specialist. Lastly, as his list illustrates, if you enjoy fine fly rods new or classic, the worst way to select is by brand.

Back in the 1990's, I thought the finest fishing 8 1/2'/#4 was GLX, in 2000, Nti Nano, 2010 Hardy Zenith then switching backwardly to Streamdance HLS GLX then Sage ONE. Among todays rods X would be the winner (for me). Were I seeking a yet smaller water #4 the 8' AIR/Pure competitors and the Scot 8'4'/#4 would top my list and then the smaller yet DART. cooutlaw, I'm away for the weekend but I got an e-mail that a parcel has been delivered to my office from Scott Fly Rod CO....that would be the 8'4" GS to be compared on the creek to the Winston's next month.

PS: When I visit Winston in Twin, I will inquire about the classic reissues technological relationship to the originals.

 

[Blackstonefly]

I do not think this Winston Rod was on your list but a Winston Blll LS is a Fantastic rod you may want to try if you have a chance to cast one. I actually preferred this model to my BlllX and my older BllX.. I liked the LS so much I wound up selling the other two.. For me it was a softer tipped rod that had a Great presentation and it was a different feel than the stiffer BlllX. You really should really try to cast them and try to compare the models if possible. Very Often the one you are planning on getting, gets out performed by another model you that was not even considering. Every ones casting stroke is different in more ways than one so its almost a must to try and cast and compare several models & sizes. In Some models the 6" shorter rod will be so much different than the longer rod. Try em all, then and only then should you Bite The Bullet .

 

[Matti]

Thank you for all the comments so far.

I have not necessary limited myself to 4wt yet, but I have been thinking it could be a better fit, since:
- 70 % of my casting is roll casting due to the wading restrictions or no room for back cast
- I have Rio Single Handed Spey 7wt in the BIIIX. While I think it is a great line, it is not the best line for dry flies
- Therefore I'll be using the 4wt as a dry fly rod also in bigger rivers where I have a chance for some bigger trouts

That is why I think that the rod should be a little bit more of an allrounder, but on the other hand, I use my 6wt when 4wt is not enough.

Maybe it comes down to which is the best 4wt rod to roll cast and still delicate presentation, but at the same time I would not want anything close to the length or the weight of my 9'6 BIIIX.