Soft Tip? - Crisp Tip?

sweetandsalt

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The question has been broached both by new member, jaycle, and in discussion about a famous expert caster's preference for deeper flexing, slower action rods for accuracy; what is the relevance among 5-weight trout rods intended principally for dry fly use between rods with deeper flex profiles and softer tips and steeper tapers with quicker tips? Obviously personal preferences and casting styles play a roll in rod action choices, however, biasing toward elusive objectivity, what roll in dry fly fishing does timing tempo, dynamic recovery, line speed, loop stability even tippet protection does the overall taper design play in presentation, hook-up and subsequent playing of the fish?

We all understand from numerous past threads that some regard a Winston TMF or WT as the premier dry fly rod while others consider, essentially the opposite, Sage ONE as the ultimate dry fly specialist. Are both opinions correct, is it somewhere in between and, importantly, why?
 

dr d

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hi s+s,

imo team us prefers lts ephemera - deeper flexing with dynamic tip recovery - for precision contest.

lesser stress, more time and stable but supple tip - that´s it imo.

i f.e. prefer my custom sage mod 490-4 (not a #5).


nice we.


thomas
 

dillon

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I find it more difficult to make on water mends with a full flexing rod. However, in the accuracy department I don't see much of a difference. I also have a tendency to punch the forward cast which a faster tip seems to tolerate better. I'm working on that...
 

mike_r

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I think preference in actions is more a product of the typical distances the individual fly fisher choses to fish. I typically fish a 12- 15’ hand tied mono leader on a 4 or 5 wt rod using dries. If I am fishing a big open river that is ultra clear and full of spooky trout, I tend to fish as far off as possible: 40-65’. That is right in the wheelhouse for a quick recovering,semi soft tipped 9’ 5wt with a fairly steep taper. Inside of 40’, I prefer a slightly more mid-flexing yet progressive and quick recovering 8’6” 4 wt for dry fly work. I have no problems mending with any rod; softer rods just tend to mend slower. Keeping a dry fly in a perfect, drag-free drift and the ability to extend a drift is easier for me with a quick tipped rod as are aerial mends prior to dropping the fly. Softer, full flexing rods excel at duties like swinging a team of wets, where a deeper mend is often beneficial. No matter what the rod action, there is no substitute for casting proficiency. I enjoy different rods for different tactics. I believe rod designers have very specific intentions for a given fly rod based on how they would fish that rod. We are very fortunate today to have all of the current choices: a rod to satisfy each individuals personal criteria to enhance their sense of finely tuned fishing!


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cooutlaw

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Even though this is potentially a "Can O' Worms" Topic....I'll play....as I have opined before in several posts, there are many theories and preferences as to how an angler may prefer and perceive a dry fly presentation....some are of the thought that slower and more delicate, full flexing, soft tipped, rods are best for dry fly work....where others are of the thinking that faster line speed to unfurl longer leaders and allow such prior to presenting the fly upon water is preferred, both are used in specialized individual techniques, in days of old it was the same...softer, slower rods were often thought of as "wet" rods by some and "dry" rods by others....and the same went for rods with more backbone. As technology advanced, we became aware of "recovery" and a rods ability to come back to static in both body and tip...and began to understand that better recovery, lessened undulating tendencies within extended line and further loop formation, similarly true for both faster and slower rods. I often refer to the separation of opinion as those who prefer slower dry rods and those who prefer faster dry rods as slow dry and fast dry application rods. Although I may take authorship of these terms as casual descriptors for angling chat, I really use them for lack of a better specialized naming...and to describe the attributes of particular gear so a person listening or reading will have no confusion as to which attributes a particular rod has. I personally have little preference for one action over another, in such that if the rod meets the circumstances at hand to present the fly accordingly then I deem the rod serviceable for the task. However, my caveat, is that I absolutely have a preference for rods that are tuned for appropriate recovery....and further, this doesn't mean necessarily the most modern rods available, I have opined that many early rods, even slower action rods, had quality recovery. Others, did not. I do not like a rod that reverberates endlessly upon stop and much like sound waves passes that on in kind to the line and loops being thrown. So for me, the recovery and stability of a rod trumps perceived action of a rod. Arguably, I will contend that stability and recovery are paramount attributes beyond slow, medium, medium fast, or fast rod actions. In regard to the above, I do not believe there is a right or wrong belief in a "best" type of rod to present dries and rather contend that the rod should match the environment of use and be capable of it's job....if it is, whether fast, slow, or in between, the rod is serviceable. Personal preference of how one perceives a rod to "match" ones personal needs and style of fishing may have been the leading in to several trains of thought in regard to what constitutes a "dry" fly rod, but in all actuality, I cannot see, other than preference, or applied to specialty technique, a way for an angler to prove superiority of one design over another. Short answer- for me, only me, your mileage may certainly vary, give me a rod with solid stability and recovery and I'll make any rod with it work respectably to present dries....regardless of perceived action.
 
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sweetandsalt

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"Short answer- for me, only me, your mileage may certainly vary, give my stability and recovery and I'll make any rod work respectably to present dries....regardless of perceived action." cooutlaw

"I have no problems mending with any rod; softer rods just tend to mend slower. Keeping a dry fly in a perfect, drag-free drift and the ability to extend a drift is easier for me with a quick tipped rod as are aerial mends prior to dropping the fly." mike_r


I hope no can-o'worms, just lovely sparse floating flies. I think the rod design parameters of "stability and recovery" are indeed crucial to rods of any action. I do wonder if deeper flexing rods by virtue of increased flexural movement lower into the taper inherently risk reduction because of more moving mass. My experience is that both aerial and on-water mends are more adroit with a sharper reflex tip...again less movement produces cleaner actions.

One question that has come up in discussion, lets hear more about this here please, is line speed. My perception is line speed defies gravity longer allowing greater in-air line control. Is high line speed a function of faster rods or can a skilled caster generate equivalent line speed with a deeper flexing, quality rod?
 

hollisd

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For any fly rod I'm fishing I eventually find the sweet spot via an a-ha moment on the water, grinning as my fly lands on a plate. Variables range from river, weather, and how I'm feeling to fly, line, and leader. No matter the tip or action, bamboo, glass, or an 8 pc backpacking rod find the epiphany.
 

silver creek

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The question has been broached both by new member, jaycle, and in discussion about a famous expert caster's preference for deeper flexing, slower action rods for accuracy; what is the relevance among 5-weight trout rods intended principally for dry fly use between rods with deeper flex profiles and softer tips and steeper tapers with quicker tips? Obviously personal preferences and casting styles play a roll in rod action choices, however, biasing toward elusive objectivity, what roll in dry fly fishing does timing tempo, dynamic recovery, line speed, loop stability even tippet protection does the overall taper design play in presentation, hook-up and subsequent playing of the fish?

We all understand from numerous past threads that some regard a Winston TMF or WT as the premier dry fly rod while others consider, essentially the opposite, Sage ONE as the ultimate dry fly specialist. Are both opinions correct, is it somewhere in between and, importantly, why?
I don't know if this is pertinent to your question, but is is about fly rod choice for casting accuracy of dry flies in International Competition. I've cobbled a couple of previous posts together:

Kris Korich posted on this subject on Sexyloops. Since this post from a couple of years ago they have switched rods to customized LTS Flyfishing Ephemera trout rods for accuracy competition.

Depending on the distance of the cast, the fly rod used must have enough mass and feedback to allow the fly caster to adjust his/her timing of the cast.

Here is his post with credit to Sexlyloops: rod accuracy - Page 9 - The Board

"Maybe a good place for me to contribute my first post ever!

Thanks for the recent instant messages about this 'rod accuracy' thread Paul. Great finally meeting you and many other competitors at the World Championships of Flycasting back in August!

As fellow ACA casting mate Craig has shared here, it's really amazing how welcoming and generous addicted fly fishers are, especially amongst the FUN casting game participants and here within the Sexyloops community. When I click on 'Contents' at the top of your home page, I'm blown away by what YOU and your cast of passionate contributors have achieved over the past 16 years. The Force has definitely been with you all!

When it comes to the fly tackle empire, I've kind of been in self-imposed exile for many decades, watching from afar, as many manufacturers has drifted farther and farther down the quicker, easier and more seductive 'dark side' path of tackle design and related marketing.

While in exile however, I haven't stopped testing and teaching others the secrets of accuracy casting and the importance of making smart equipment choices, especially during the early formative phases of learning and practicing.

Now that my most gifted Padawan, 12 yr-old Maxine McCormick, has passed the apprentice stage and become the youngest fly casting Jedi in history, I sense it's time for me to come out of the forest and do my best to contribute a bit here.

As Paul previously quoted in post #24, Maxine, father Glenn and myself, all chose 40 yr-old 1st gen graphite rods for Trout Accuracy at the World Championships in Estonia. The most obvious question is WHY?

Although there are numerous reasons, the single most important is FEEL. In particular, LINE feel, which Paul emphasizes, over and over again, in his excellent instructional posts!


If I'm correctly understanding the original 2 questions asked in post #1, the logical answer regarding what WJC has read about in ‘rod review shootouts’, has to do with how deep a test line is BENDING a particular rod at a given target distance, given the tester's stroke mechanics and ability to adapt.

At a 60 foot target distance, the heavier amount of line extended is going to help BEND a rod more deeply. Deeper bending, when not excessive, generally improves LINE FEEL and can easily help a caster execute his/her stroke and resulting cast more accurately.

At 30 feet, especially with modern light graphite and stiffer rod designs, minimal bending can easily rob a caster of adequate LINE FEEL. Hence, it's very easy to misdirect a short cast to a close target.

In essence, short strokes at close targets happen so quickly, the caster doesn't have the extra milliseconds and bio feedback to execute the stroke accurately. Combined with a lower mass of line extended and generally less line speed at 30 feet, it's also easy for air and wind conditions to negatively affect accuracy on the final delivery.

Hopefully now, the U.S. team's recent accuracy success using deeper bending and slightly heavier 1st gen graphite rods, makes a bit more sense.

Obviously, there's more to it, but all in good time!

Chris Korich"


The late Jim Green, one time champion fly caster and rod designer (Fenwick and Sage) makes the same point when discussion rod action.

Jim Green said in an interview by Andy Dear:

"You see I am an old Bamboo man, I have always had a love for Bamboo. It's amazing when you think about it, you take all these materials, Bamboo, Glass, Graphite in some cases Boron. The most important part of a rod is not what it is made of. What's more important is the action of the rod. If you take a good Bamboo rod with the correct action, they might say it's a Bamboo action, but there is no such thing as a Bamboo action. It might be a Bamboo feel, but not a Bamboo action. The action of a rod is just the way it happens to bend under stress. So you can make a bamboo rod that will bend under stress a certain way, and you can make a glass rod that will bend under stress a certain way, and then a graphite rod, they all are going to cast good you know? Sure one is going to be lighter than the other, of course that's what seems to be a big selling point, people like them light....

The feel is there because it has weight and swing. They call that a Bamboo action, it is not an action, it is a feel. The action like I said before is the way a rod bends. You can take all three: Bamboo, Glass and Graphite, and if they have a good action, they will all cast very well, but Bamboo will feel different because it is heavier. If you want to duplicate the action and feel of a Bamboo rod you have to build it solid, so it will have a different kind of swing to it. "


Jim Green

So Jim Green associates rod "feel" with "fly rod action + mass distribution." I think he is 100% correct. Not only is he correct because he is Jim Green, he is correct because mass is an intimate part of momentum and energy, two key factors in how a fly rod performs and feels.
 

sweetandsalt

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The "famous expert caster" in the original post was indeed, Kris Korich. So what tackle he was referring to in accuracy competition was originally Jim Green's Fenwick HMG circa 1974. In reference to Silver's quote mentioning line speed at shorter distances with less line mass aerialized, this is not a factor in hovering a "fly" to drop on target in competition but is a very real matter of consideration in the presentation process in actual angling. I will risk saying that the cast and the presentation though obviously intertwined are two separate acts of fly rod movement distinguishing pure superb competition casting from actual angling. I, for example, know of a competitive caster (I think mentioned by Korich) who is also a fine fisherman who uses a slower action rod as described in competition but a G-Loomis Asquith in angling. Therein lies the core of my inquiry about rod action and dry fly FISHING.
 

silver creek

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The "famous expert caster" in the original post was indeed, Kris Korich. So what tackle he was referring to in accuracy competition was originally Jim Green's Fenwick HMG circa 1974. In reference to Silver's quote mentioning line speed at shorter distances with less line mass aerialized, this is not a factor in hovering a "fly" to drop on target in competition but is a very real matter of consideration in the presentation process in actual angling. I will risk saying that the cast and the presentation though obviously intertwined are two separate acts of fly rod movement distinguishing pure superb competition casting from actual angling. I, for example, know of a competitive caster (I think mentioned by Korich) who is also a fine fisherman who uses a slower action rod as described in competition but a G-Loomis Asquith in angling. Therein lies the core of my inquiry about rod action and dry fly FISHING.
Very interesting S&S. I suspect the the G-Loomis Asquith is a better all around rod. If you have the chance to interact with the competitive caster, it would be revealing to know what rod he would choose if he had to only fish dry flies.
 

cooutlaw

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S&S, again, I think personal preference of specialty technique to be employed, along with specific rod choice for both that technique and tailored to the environs of water to be fished, would somewhat, if not fully, dictate a preference for one action or the another. In your personal preferences of dry specific and employing particular specialty techniques, I think the choice would be obvious for you....where perhaps for an angler on say a very small stream, who also only fishes specifically dries, may use a completely different technique altogether and require a different action rod to accomplish it, same with perhaps a still water angler....line speed as a separate topic can be beneficial, as we all know, in combating the challenges of wind, payload, distance, and in certain techniques provide benefit to leader unfurling....it is not however needed in all scenarios such as the ones listed above.....I think we may be trying to group a "package" of sorts to be crowned as the vote of "best" dry rod.....I, as you, and many others, have several rods that I consider for dry fly duty assignment, but they are used in differing fishing conditions and situations, some are fast action, some are slower, some medium-fast, some with higher line speed (naturally by design, no caster induced) some with lower line speed. BUT, all fall into a category of acceptable recovery and stability (via my opinion). Per stability and recovery - a couple ways to view this, a rod that flexes much deeper can still have quick recovery, perhaps more so in tip than fully in body (which takes longer) where as a fast rod, by design, with deeper reserve power, allows less full "body" flex therefore it has less flex to recover from....although, you may discover that once separating body recovery from tip recovery, both a full flexing and faster rod may both feature excellent tip recovery, but body recovery would potentially be slower to occur in the full flexing rod....given this....stability...then becomes a paramount attribute for full flexing rods....and correctly designed and implemented, this facet significantly levels the playing field on the body recovery aspect. This all of course, if the goal of FISHING in this posts interest, encompasses both accuracy and quality of presentation.
 

sweetandsalt

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Silver, He is a dry fly Delaware River angler and goes by e caster here on our Forum. He has numerous rods including Stickman, Sage and Loomis. A world class casting expert, he is one of the very best I know.

cooutlaw, I would not dream of crowning a particular rod or action the King. As you say, differing habitats and circumstances. I remain curious as to whether a deeper flexing rod in the hands of a caster far more accomplished than me can generate high line speed?
 

The op

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I have 2 favorite dry fly rods.

One is progressive,crisp tipped high line speed machine.
The other is slow,full flexing fibreglass low line speed delight.

Both adequate for technical dryfly presentations in their own right.

My selection process would be

Habitat

Wind conditions

Or even just my mood
 

jaycle

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The question has been broached both by new member, jaycle, and in discussion about a famous expert caster's preference for deeper flexing, slower action rods for accuracy; what is the relevance among 5-weight trout rods intended principally for dry fly use between rods with deeper flex profiles and softer tips and steeper tapers with quicker tips? Obviously personal preferences and casting styles play a roll in rod action choices, however, biasing toward elusive objectivity, what roll in dry fly fishing does timing tempo, dynamic recovery, line speed, loop stability even tippet protection does the overall taper design play in presentation, hook-up and subsequent playing of the fish?

We all understand from numerous past threads that some regard a Winston TMF or WT as the premier dry fly rod while others consider, essentially the opposite, Sage ONE as the ultimate dry fly specialist. Are both opinions correct, is it somewhere in between and, importantly, why?
I have a 6wt 9'6" H2 tip flex, but I don't consider it a crisp tip, but I don't have much experience casting other rods, so I'm not sure how it compares - it seems to have a soft tip to me, but with a steep taper. For dry fly work, I would prefer an 8'6" 4 or 5wt. The problem is dealing with the wind. Seems like a crisp tip with deep power reserves would be ideal. I'm just not sure any 4 or 5wt rod would match the power of my 6wt H2?
 

czando

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Great in depth discussion! My take is its all about distance. I used to fish Montana spring creeks that were small using a Winston with a soft tip and proved to be a perfect match.

However, that same type of action out of my drift boat on the Delaware with wind would obviously not be sold match.

Rod designers created a new set of rod actions that had soft tips and stiff butts. Rods like the XP and now even the radian allow the average caster distance but in my opinion are hard to control at distance.

I feel rods like the new Avantt and Asquith with fast recovery give you the best of both worlds


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tcorfey

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Personally I like different rod actions for different conditions so I do not really have a.preference for a particular rod for all conditions. For shorter presentations that require creativity I prefer a shorter full flex rod with a softer tip. For longer distances, or if wind is a factor then I prefer a longer rod with a faster action and a faster tip. In either case I want the rod to recover fast and not go through a lot of vibrations but you can dampen vibrations yourself somewhat but loosening your grip at the end of the cast. As for mending in the air I agree with S&S that a faster tip is preferred but for mending on the water it depends on what kind of water, in riffles I prefer a faster tip and in soft water I prefer a softer tip and more rod flex as it seems to be more controllable for me.

As for guys like Chris K. I think he could generate a high line speed with any rod regardless of it's action. I have seen him in action many times with many rod types and he is just amazing. But for me I believe the different rod actions lend themselves to different fishing conditions, different types of casts and different presentations. I guess if I could find one rod that did it all that would be great but alas that holy grail rod has not been found yet.

Regards,

Tim C.
 

foulhook3160

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I had a recent experience with a rod considered to be an excellent small stream rod. When it was a normal cast I did fine (room to backcast, didn't have to worry about vegetation) but many times I had to improvise a cast, do a roll cast, or just get the cast in a pocket the best I could. When this happened the accuracy suffered. The accuracy was not near up to my normal small stream rod-Sage Txl-f 4 weight. In reading the thread about the new Sage LL, SweetandSalt mentioned an original Sage '8 9" LL that he "found its tip to soft for precision work". This was exactly what I felt about this rod. The rod felt great for normal casts but when the going got tight I feel the soft tip kept it from being as accurate as it should.

So for me, a soft tip works fine on open areas, but a firmer tip works better for the tight stuff.
 

myt1

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I had a recent experience with a rod considered to be an excellent small stream rod. When it was a normal cast I did fine (room to backcast, didn't have to worry about vegetation) but many times I had to improvise a cast, do a roll cast, or just get the cast in a pocket the best I could. When this happened the accuracy suffered. The accuracy was not near up to my normal small stream rod-Sage Txl-f 4 weight. In reading the thread about the new Sage LL, SweetandSalt mentioned an original Sage '8 9" LL that he "found its tip to soft for precision work". This was exactly what I felt about this rod. The rod felt great for normal casts but when the going got tight I feel the soft tip kept it from being as accurate as it should.

So for me, a soft tip works fine on open areas, but a firmer tip works better for the tight stuff.
foulhook3160, I tend to agree with you, particularly about a firm tip working better in tight places.

For that reason I'm intrigued by the Sage Dart.

I'm thinking of having a buddy build one for me from a blank.
 

foulhook3160

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Thanks Rick, good to find somebody who may think the same way I do. Had a lot of people suggest I had a wonky cast instead of using a rod with a wonky tip. I too am interested in the Sage Dart, but to be honest the Sage Txl-F has been such a great small stream rod I don't have much of an imperative to get a new rod.
 
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