Winston – A Venerable Classic Brand?

sweetandsalt

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NOTE: It gives me no pleasure to post this report and surely does me no good. However, since learning of the described events a few weeks ago, I knew I had to write something. I have tried to fact check and get multiple perspectives for this piece though not too much was forthcoming. The below content is true to the best of my knowledge and, if inaccurate in any specific way that any of you know of, please add additional or alternative information.


T15 002 SF Winston vs.jpg

There was a time when I was in the Twin Bridges, Montana, area that I would look forward to going by the old, back ally shop at closing time and enjoy a bit of whisky out of an enameled metal cup with Glenn Brackett, Tom Morgan and, later, Jerry Kustich, too. Sometimes, some evening fishing on the Ruby was involved as well. Between the two of us, my wife and I have 4 Winston rods, all 8 ½’ models and the first was made in San Francisco prior to Winston’s move to Montana. Even back then, I was already moving on to rods with faster actions and quicker tips which represented dry fly presentation advantages on the bigger rivers I’ve long favored like the Henry’s Fork. Still, I had enormous respect and admiration for the dedicated artisans at Winston and the vison they manifested and adhered to.

Times change; Morgan’s health declined and the green and boo rod company was sold to a California based man with resources and the intent to preserve the Winston traditions and taper styles. A new larger, albeit architecturally un-small town Montana, factory was built south of town while Brackett and the Boo Boys continued working in the original, memorabilia laden shop in town. Sam Druckman, a young rod designer with a penchant for deeper flexing designs in the Winston tradition, was brought in and was known for BIIx and other early modern developments still following in the conceptual class of Morgan era WT’s.

Then Glenn was fired; allegedly over a financial disagreement about bringing in an outside cane rod shop apprentice. A man of calm wisdom, Glenn moved into another wooden building in Twin to pursue his passion and started Sweetgrass Rods. The bamboo shop craftsman followed Glenn and Druckman left too, to join Glenn, stating, “I did not join Winston to not work with the great Glenn Brackett”.

So, Brackett has Sweetgrass, Morgan had his independent boutique Tom Morgan Rodsmiths and Druckman went on to do his best work at Freestone. Morgan and Druckman, sadly, have both passed away. Brackett has moved Sweetgrass out of Twin to Butte and two fine men are carrying on Morgan’s company name and designs in Bozeman. These developments have led me to loose respect and long-held positive feelings for Winston, its ownership, management and compounded by the lack of a bona fide rod designer. Further, their now discontinued core rod series, BIIIx, I regarded as a design by committee “also-ran”, at best. Every model I test cast or fished resulted in a meh compared to the plethora of other, superior designed and built medium fast, progressive rods from other companies. The outrageous, globular overlapping epoxy work was an affront to any of us who admired the finish work exemplified by perfectionist Tom Morgan. I know fly rods and you can’t sell me one based on a pretty wood spacer with nickel silver bling and a nice green paint job.

I was done with Winston which had neither the product, personnel or character on top of the insult to the fly fishing community in the disrespect shown Glenn Brackett, a truly a wonderful man and craftsman.

I’m not a person who harbors prejudice though and in the world of fly fishing equipment, I seek merit in creativity, innovation and integrity. A few years ago, Winston added new, talented and professionally experienced management people, one who is a long-time friend of mine. Under this newly acquired management, Winston AIR with Nano silica resin technology, Pure, AIR Salt…the only Winston ever made appropriate for flats fishing…and new AIR Two Handers garnered Winston back-to-back best new fly rod awards at the European EFFTEX Show.

I test cast Winston’s 8’/#4 non-identical twins at Edison and fished and reviewed, here on our Forum, a field test sample of AIR Salt 9’/#9 while redfishing last spring. It was my intent to compare those two little 4-weights, right in Winston’s traditional wheelhouse, to the Scott GS #4 for a Forum thread. Prior to arriving in the Twin Bridges area, I learned that my friend, Jim Murphy, who I was on my way heading over there to visit, had departed from Winston. I have reached out to Winston, via e-mail, seeking publishable information as to the reasons an innovative man, intimately involved and contributory for their new found European awards, was no longer with the Company. They have responded that no press release or explanatory statement was forthcoming.

Winston has always been about the Winston “feel” not blank-building craftsmanship. In fact, many of their most revered rods of yesteryear were built on blanks made based on Morgan’s specifications by JK Fisher and later, fabrication pioneer, Gary Loomis’s IM6’s. Winton’s made in Montana blanks may well be among the poorest constructed of any of the famed American made rod makers, flaws and inconsistencies hidden beneath the widely adored glossy green paint, which they, unsuccessfully, once strove to patent. I am aware of no indication that they have upgraded their fabrication equipment or brought in skilled and experienced outside rod building personnel to keep abreast in a small industry where material science is a vital component of rod design. Instead they seem to be relying on the enviable, if now misplaced, customer loyalty to Morgan era green rods. Once a rod maker of leadership and integrity but no longer.

For the second time, a rod company I have fished rods from since the late 1970’s has disaffected me and the only way they’re likely to get a third chance is by selling the company to qualified, industry professional ownership, revamping their operations and hiring a talented rod designer. I’m not fishing any of my old Winston’s in protest.
 
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Unknownflyman

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Spicy, Thanks for the post, I don't own any Winston rods never did, but I liked that air. Its doubtful I`d ever drop some coin on one anyway figuring Sage takes my money.

I can see it hurts you a bit, because you knew these people, drank a little whiskey talked and fished. sounds like the good old days.

Thats too bad about Winston.

Tom Morgan is a name I recognize from glass.
 

rsagebrush

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Well the world will keep on turning I believe. I own a couple of Winston's, IM6 about the best trout rods ever made.
Anyways, it's not really Winston anymore for quite a few years is it.

As per Coho52, it seems Mr. Murphy changes jobs a lot, that in itself is not a bad thing but could ring some alarm bells. How are the other companies faring ( I believe Greys and Douglas) since he left taking his talents with him?
How are you privy to Winston's production methods? I don't seem to recall a lot of people complaining about the quality of their blanks over the years although I think their preformed grips suck and I have never been a fan of Nickle Silver (or look alike) on fly rods.
 
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coho52

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S&S,

Thanks for filling in some information on Jim Murphy. I had read he had "retired" from Winston but no other information has been forthcoming. Too bad. Based on your previous comments about him, sure seemed he was going to lead a renaissance in Winston's fortunes. Now that seems to be a bust.
 

srock

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SandS. Your analysis of how Winston rods have changed, especially in terms of innovation and new technology in a small market would make an excellent college management case study. A possible title might be: Winston: how success breeds failure. While your analysis is specific to a fly fishing rod company, similar patterns of dysfunctional adaptation abound in both the public and private sectors. This is exactly why the most creative innovation often occurs in smaller, newer companies trying to survive and compete. Once a company makes it, and has a reputation it can rely on, the incentive to innovate declines and the motivation to milk the older reputation for money and rewards increases. Eventually, the company is no longer competitive and either goes out of business or becomes less dominant. Think of IBM, it never made PC’s until late in the game. So, your prescription is spot on in terms of what it may take to turn Winston around. In the meantime, I will take any of your older Winston rods off your hands for a reasonable price. Best, SR
 

sweetandsalt

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Let's see if I understand your post. They "added new, talented and professionally experienced management people," upgraded their materials, improved their product quality, and broadened their product line. But because they parted ways with your friend—"Removed the offending content".


This seems unlikely.
You do not seem to have risen to my drift. Yes, they added much needed outside talent; all of whom are now gone of their own volition or not. They did employ nano silica resin for the AIR series but the man responsible for this inspiration is gone. They did not and have not for years improved their product build quality and I might know more about this than it would be appropriate for me to write about.

It is true that I would rather not have felt compelled to write this. They have not designed or built a rod that makes the grade for me in a long time. I thought they were entering the process of turning this around but are reversing instead. Of course, for the fans of Tom Morgan's rods, Tom Morgan Rodsmiths is a going concern in Bozeman and Glenn continues making his fine cane rods in Butte
 
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Redrock

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Well, hell. I got busy working on my place and didn’t get a chance to fish either of the 8 foot, 4 weight Winston rods on my June trip. The water will be down for my September trip and my major chores completed. I had hoped an air/pure 4 weight shootout. Now, not so much. Thanks for the report.

Sorry I missed you guys. Hopefully, next year.
 

sweetandsalt

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Apparently the actions of a company can be painful but not to worry, winstonwt, I have no issues with your older Morgan era WT's. I'd suggest you do some investigation into the factuality of what I wrote above but I hesitate to cause you any more discomfort.
 

sweetandsalt

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Well the world will keep on turning I believe. I own a couple of Winston's, IM6 about the best trout rods ever made.
Anyways, it's not really Winston anymore for quite a few years is it.

As per Coho52, it seems Mr. Murphy changes jobs a lot, that in itself is not a bad thing but could ring some alarm bells. How are the other companies faring ( I believe Greys and Douglas) since he left taking his talents with him?
How are you privy to Winston's production methods? I don't seem to recall a lot of people complaining about the quality of their blanks over the years although I think their preformed grips suck and I have never been a fan of Nickle Silver (or look alike) on fly rods.
Your IM6 WT's are regarded by many as an apex in Morgan's rod history. Those blanks were, of course, built by Gary Loomis. Jim Murphy's history of accomplishment and the legacy he left behind at companies he either founded or worked for are well documented. Leaving seminal Redington Nti Nano aside, his work as President of Hardy North America was a game changer for them and subsequent short stint at Douglas has left us with SKY, an excellent rod series well built in Korea.

Suffice it to say that having fished in Montana and Idaho since 1969 and the Catskill region even earlier, I have had the privilege to meet and get to know fly fishers that worked for or went on to work at rod companies. I'm privy to many stories both good and less so.

A few years ago an independent, highly qualified, scientific analysis of fly rod blank construction was privately published. I do not have permission to reveal too much about this but it illustrated who rolled blanks well and who did not and why. Now I'm not claiming I can pick up a fly rod and say, hmmm, I feel a bunch of crisscrossed fibers here and a lay-up gap there but any fibers out of alignment surely do impact the purity of a rod's flexural design. The craftsman at the rolling table has a vital roll in realizing the designers taper intent as does the material technology employed to build it. I'm not talking about stainless steel vs. nickel titanium visible guide sets here, I'm talking about invisible craftsmanship at the heart of a fly rods character. For me, who designed a fly rod and how it was built is important whether we are talking about a short deep flexing creek rod or a fast action flats rod. I fish rods from long famous makers and brand new start ups and of the six rods I fished this season thus far, they are widely varied but all terrific. Right, none of them are Winston's.
 

cooutlaw

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Ok folks, buckle up, this is going to be a long post. It will not be long in a fashion of anything other than attempting to give deeper perspective and add clarity to this post. I also wanted the initial dust to settle, but maybe I can cut a bunch of splatter off at the pass.

As some of you know, I was a young guide in MT back in the day...the alley shop of Winston that S&S speaks of was a regular gathering spot for me and countless other "regulars" around the area. I became associated with Tom Morgan, Jerry Siem, and Glenn Brackett, and others enough so that I considered them friends. I also developed a loyalty to Winston product and respected these people as visionary craftsmen. There was no debate, the rods being produced at that time were cutting edge design and of the highest quality craftsmanship.

For many years I bled green, a true fan and loyalist, and I put my money where my mouth was, I spent every weeks guiding tips on rods or beer. I amassed what any angler what consider a sizable collection of Winston Rods.

Then a big change happened, Tom's health began declining and he sold the company to David O., A wealthy young investment guy from CA with deep pockets and the right sales pitch, opining to continue the Winston legacy in it's legacy fashion. I tried very hard to remain loyal and to like the new leadership of the company and support the direction it was going. I continued to buy rods, WT's, LT's, BIIT's, and BIIIX's, BIIILS's. These rods certainly still "fished" just fine, but they lacked the comparative quality build of the earlier rods. Were the designs still serviceable? Yes. Were the designs cutting edge, the build quality on par with what Winston was known for, or the tapers possessing the same magic qualities of the IM6/WT Morgan designed mandrels? Well no, no they were not. This did not make them BAD rods, they just were not any longer industry leading in any of those categories. I still owned them and still fished them.

Along the way, those early players and contributors all left. Glenn, one of the very best craftsman in his specialty, and a super knowledgeable and dedicated fly rod artisan, got sideways with ownership and as S&S sited, parted ways and moved on to his own shop. Loosing Glenn and Sam, I felt was a mistake, I continued to watch the company. The company, as many do, became managed by bottom line, cost cutting production, and decisions ruled by the accountants quarterly reports. Art and accounting don't often go hand in hand, we'll leave it at that. Producing the very best of anything requires capital investment and finest of knowledgeable expert labor and best materials and equipment, I watched as accounting began to rule the investment allocated to daily operations, and further the demand put on existing staff to make it work within budget allowed.

As I became frustrated by what I saw, I have opined before, that was about the time that Scott moved to Colorado and I was able to understand personally, their vision, dedication, and their product. I saw a distinct difference in another small company choosing to stay the course of producing legacy products they were historically known for and scale, profit, and volume be damned, no excuses, no sacrifice of character or integrity. During this period I fished rods from many makers, I still fished my Winston's too.

I was always hopeful and optimistic that Winston would again embrace it's roots and rise again to a legacy maker. I knew the challenge was simply leadership allowing innovation. Recently, as some also know, Annette at Winston designed the Pure series, about this time Winston opened it's pockets and very timely hired Jim Murphy as it's VP of Sales and then shortly after became President of the company, his insights and industry resources combined with Annette's basic designs allowed a collaborative production of Pure and the first in awhile legit entry into cutting edge, industry leading rods within their sizing. I was excited for Winston, perhaps the start of a needed rebirth that I had been hoping for, industry chatter about Winston was again prolific and a new direction of innovation and quality seemed to be on the horizon. They reopened a bamboo shop, won some industry awards and were tracking to make up some years of lost ground. I pronounced this optimistically on this forum in several posts.

Sadly, as if the power was turned off, and the rug ripped out from underfoot, leadership and accounting again struck midnight and thanked these folks for their contribution and sent them packing. The product was in hand, and these talents were not any longer needed until a next series would require creation. It's business, I get it, I've spent a good portion of my professional life in executive management and consulting, but I eschew the culture of sacrificing lambs on a regular basis. I understand what it's like to have a remote executive board of director investors send down the CFO's recommendations to trim the fat now that the value is received, but I do not like, nor advocate, that form of operation.

What I can say, in my opinion, Winston has historically made bad decisions in the way the company has been run since David has owned it and the culture has declined with a lack of vision. Further, I have watched quality decline throughout a hyper monitored and remotely micro-managed budget of operations. Further yet, It is my personal opinion that until the company obtains new leadership and ownership, and free reign is given to innovation and infrastructure, that we will simply be watching the same movie and hoping for a different ending.

This post is from a Winston fan, at least an early Winston fan, I am saddened that the reality is not different and am still holding optimism for change, permanent change hopefully.

I know many will be confused and possibly even angered by this thread. I understand the loyalty and the passion of those that own and appreciate green rods. I am one of you. However, I also have to embrace the reality that there are many options for today's consumer and I can sincerely say that I have embraced and appreciated having those options at my disposal, because I have found some of those options to be distinct improvements over some of the later green rods that have been in my ownership.

With my background and connection to early Winston, and ongoing association of contemporary employees throughout the years, as well as the historical threads, collection consulting, and reference pieces that I have written, one might find it challenging to employ a stronger resource of familiarity and optimism for Winston than I have possessed. S&S reached out to me before posting here, wanting my feedback, as he knew some dissension would be voiced, and sadly, I had to offer that my faith and optimism were waning and that it was my opinion that until new ownership is employed I'm not convinced the company will ever again reach it's once pinnacle stance in the industry, and for the reasons I have stated above.

I am saddened by the thought that an industry icon continues to live on a 30+ year old reputation and continues to make decisions that are not only detrimental to it's employees, but to it's loyal consumers and the legacy of the brand.

Whether anyone appreciates or likes this thread, or it angers them (it angers me to have to accept the reality), it's reality is not arguable. This, for me, is confirmation that the end of an era that I refused to personally give up on, is still an ongoing reality. I am truly saddened.

Lastly, I will be the first in line to sample any product that a positive change in direction of this company may produce. Hopefully it will be under new ownership with a vision to turn back the clock 30 years and reclaim it's legacy. If I wasn't trying to work toward ending a career, I might be inclined to gather investors and make them an offer to sell, to do just that.

Another sad day, and another post that I hoped would not have to bridged again. History has a way of repeating itself, let's hope the next chapter is filled with a new resurgence of the permanent kind.


20190721_152715.jpg

This is the Winston I was a fan of and I want back. You may note the bottle year 1994, my last visit at that shop with Tom, and although enameled tin cups were often used in the alley....mine was just tin and hung on a nail.
 
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dillon

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I do not own a Winston trout rod. However, I do fish a Winston B11x Spey. These rods have a big following among PNW steel headers. Partially because many guides are on the Winston pro staff and therefore use and promote them.

I do not have historical relationship that SandS and Cooutlaw do with these key former Winston players. However, I have had the honor of meeting some of them. As I sat and listened to Jim talk at his Sheridan house this summer, one of my few comments was, "It seems like,David should sell Winston!"

I believe the comments on this thread should reach a wider audience of anglers and industry professionals, including sending a link to the Winston ownership and remaining staff. I too would love to see Winston resurge. Then I might acquire another Winston Spey...
 

jayr

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I have reached out to Winston, via e-mail, seeking publishable information as to the reasons an innovative man, intimately involved and contributory for their new found European awards, was no longer with the Company. They have responded that no press release or explanatory statement was forthcoming.

This is not unusual. To publish or state anything about a former employee can put a company in a very bad position legally opening them up to a lawsuit. Likely the former employee cannot state anything as well.

Having said this, I am in no way connected to Winston or even know of the situation. I just state this as one who is in management and a former business owner as well.
 
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k_e_v

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I know this is a tough conversation and many may feel their favorite brand is being attacked. But I support what I perceive to be a honest, heartfelt conversation about a brand the op loves and has supported for so many years. I believe S&S posted in good faith and i welcome contrary views and other opinions in support of Big Green
 

ia_trouter

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I don't usually post high end rod threads but a good "review" S&S. It was more than obvious you would much rather be doling out admiration for Winston's latest offering. We'll hope they make some corrections these next few years.
 

osseous

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I've known Jim since the introduction of Reddington. His arrival at Winston was cause for celebration- his departure a surprise to me. I can say that this industry is changing- fast. Many of those changes were helped along by Jim's vision as a businessman- for better or worse. Perhaps Winston's future will be his ultimate legacy- though not as a direct result of his decisions, but an in indirect one.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

coug

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I appreciate hearing the history of the fly rod industry. I was a big fan of Winston and still have a 2pc 486 WT from the "golden age" that I will never sell. I recall wanting a new rod ten or so(?) years ago and knew it would be a Winston because of how much I enjoyed the older models. I do not live near fly shops, so trusted the brand and called a shop in Oregon to order. The person on the phone tried to talk me into something else, and even said other brands were getting a better reception from customers than the new Winstons. But I loved my old Winstons, so bought a BIIX. It was not a good fit for me, so sold it within a few months.

I have found that Kerry Burkheimer's rods have the great feel I got from my old Tom Morgan era Winston's, but they have more backbone. Probably not a coincidence as Kerry made the blanks for Morgan's rods. Tom's Fiberglass Rod Philosophy — Tom Morgan Rodsmiths.
 

City Rat

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S&S and Cooutlaw,
Thanks for the thought and effort that you each put in to providing members of the forum with sincere and candid assessments of this company and where it seems to be heading.
I own four Winston rods, three BIIIXs and a WT, and I like how they fish. That said I appreciate the well grounded sober look into the company. Hopefully, they get the message, pivot and change course. I'd like to see the company do well. Thanks to you both for sharing your knowledge and experience on this.
 

johan851

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Of course, this pops up the day after I get my new-to-me BIIIx 9' 6wt on the water for the second time and decide that I really like it... And right after I decide to find a way to test cast the 8' 4wt Pure, which I've been interested in for a while. :)

I don't want to argue with all the personal history here - there are parts of this that clearly run deep, and S&S and cooutlaw certainly know what they're talking about. It's hard to see the decline of something that meant a lot to people and formed part of the history of the sport.

Winston may no longer be what it was, but for a young guy like me, is the product available now really that bad? Fly fishing having become so commercialized, it seems like just about everyone has "sold out". I like the way my Winston rod performs (I also like my sell-out Orvis Recon) and I'm still excited to try out the Pure at some point. Who knows how many other ways I spin the flywheel of capitalism? By what criteria should I limit my choice of manufacturer?

There's one aspect of this that leaves me particularly confused:
Winton’s made in Montana blanks may well be among the poorest constructed of any of the famed American made rod makers, flaws and inconsistencies hidden beneath the widely adored glossy green paint
I'm not a rod maker and don't have the experience to appreciate the finer points, but I see modern Winstons lauded for their craftsmanship and build quality. What are you looking at that other reviewers are missing? Or, put another way, who are the famed American rod makers making up the competition?
 

sweetandsalt

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Every rod designer I've ever met has been a great caster/angler. They understand how to create rods because they know what the rod needs to be able to do. I like the saying; "Fine fly rods are built for fishermen by fishermen". Factory made, mass produced, price point rods rarely posses the character and performance of the work of Jerry Siem, Steve Rajeff, Jim Bartschi...or Tom Morgan. Morgan was man of vison and carefully informed opinion on how and why a fly rod should perform. No amount of good intentions or money can replicate such a passion. The concept can live on and move forward but not via rehashing or imitating. New found creativity and forward moving technology can make it happen but this requires talent, concerted effort and investment. These elements are not forthcoming at Winston nor advanced fabrication equipment or the outside personnel with expertise in how to use them; not available in the limited labor pool of small town Montana.

I genuinely want Winston to thrive and go on to renewed greatness. Adding not subtracting expert employees, investing not reserving funds and having hands on, vigorous leadership is required.

I understand though am not overly brand loyal. Morgan made some terrific rods but that was in the past. I grew up with Quaker Oats but have switched to Bob's Red Mill...I performed a comparative analysis.
 
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