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  1. #41

    Default Re: 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetandsalt View Post
    Leaving aside sales and ego matters, lets understand the Shootout's natural habitat, a windless gymnasium and grassy expanse. The flies are identical tufts not a bobber with multi beadheads.
    But yet for the power 5 wts a key component of the scoring system--20% of the total points in the performance test and 13% of the total points in the broader/overall rankings that includes various non-performance elements--is how the rod did (will do?) at indicator nymphing, which they say could include adding shot or tungsten putty. How can they really know when they only tested the rod throwing a small piece of yarn (that apparently is about the size of a 14-16 dry)? That's a lot different than throwing a double nymph rig with weighted flies and/or shot. They say that they don't want to use too large of a piece of yarn because bulky flies are less wind resistant and can throw off the scoring. But wouldn't someone who is looking for a "power" 5 wt want to know how it would handle hoppers and a dry/hopper-dropper? I'm sure all of the TYA testers are far better casters than I am and I would guess that they have enough experience to know from feel how a rod likely will perform a particular task, but that said if you're going to assign points for a particular task then, for the simple sake of giving some legitimacy/credibility to your review, shouldn't you actually test it?

  2. Likes unknownflyman liked this post
  3. #42

    Default Re: 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    I fish fiberglass 95% of the time because I think they are "fun" to fish. Didn't see or expect to see any of those on the list!

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Minnesota - Northern Driftless
    Posts
    2,678

    Default Re: 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetandsalt View Post
    Leaving aside sales and ego matters, lets understand the Shootout's natural habitat, a windless gymnasium and grassy expanse. The flies are identical tufts not a bobber with multi beadheads. Personally, when I wrote recently in another thread about the 8 1/2'/#4 T LL, I wrote this is my initial on-lawn impression with a couple of different lines side-by-side with similar design intent GS...a Review will follow in the spring after I fish with it. Fly rod design is habitat and technique driven. And, ukfman, I thought I addressed above my interpretive fallacy of Power/Presentation in his Shootout...but I too look forward to them and find them fun to read. By far my favorite aspect of the Shootouts is the great fodder they proved for a fun thread on the Forum.
    I must have missed that, I will look back. I was reading his ratings and went what the hell???

  5. #44

    Default Re: 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    Quote Originally Posted by unknownflyman View Post
    I must have missed that, I will look back. I was reading his ratings and went what the hell???
    "Presentation and Power are not mutually exclusive to me. In the YA Shootout "presentation" means lots of flex with feel and a soft tip. Not to me but heck. For me, as discussed in our Moderate Flex thread, deeper flexing rods are optimized for shorter casts on smaller waters, often in shorter lengths but on the Missouri for a great example, I have to make precise and delicate compound presentations at distance that would collapse a softer tip. Flexible tips are NOT optimized for high line speed aerial line/leader manipulation either." s&s

  6. #45

    Default Re: 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    They should rename the shootout to "Best 5 wt rods that fit Galvan Torque 5 and SA MPX/Trout". Different lines and reel weights would have changed everything.

    The only helpful thing in the shootout is the deflection chart imo. However, I wish next time they could use different weights on rod tip to simulate loading the rod lightly/medium/heavily. This would help to judge the rods' perfomance when using light/medium/heavy lines and when casting short/medium/long distances.

  7. Likes WNCtroutstalker, iv_wjb liked this post
  8. #46

    Default Re: 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetandsalt View Post
    FILTER Anderson: soft tips and swing weight (please jump in here Silver Creek and tell us how swing weight is calculated...I just go by feel).
    In a fly shop, I go by feel also.

    Swing weight has a very specific definition in physics. It is the Moment of Inertia (MOI). We all remember Newton's First Law of Motion = an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force. This is the law that describes inertia.

    In fly casting, Moment of Inertia (MOI) represents the inertia resistance of the fly rod to getting it to move/rotate and once it is moving/rotating, the resistance to getting it to stop moving/rotating. So higher MOI/swing weight fly rods take more force/energy to cast.

    There is a complicated method of calculating MOI.

    https://www.sexyloops.com/articles/swingweight.pdf

    Note that the link above states that MOI is highly dependent on the distribution of the mass and that mass toward the rod tip is much, much more important that mass at the rod base:

    "MOI is strongly dependent on mass distribution and distance from the axis of rotation. The dependence on distance from the axis is quadratic, so MOI increases with the square of distance to the axis of rotation. The following will generally be true:

    • Long rods will have higher MOI than shorter rods of similar build and/or mass.

    • Mass in the tip of the rod is much more important than the mass in the lower part of the rod (reel seat and grip).

    • Rods with heavy blanks will have higher MOI than rods with light blanks."


    With the above in mind, this is how Yellowstone Anglers calculates swing weight. It is at 3:20 in the video below. They "balance" the assembled fly rod with the rod handle on a scale and place force on the butt end of the rod grip until the rod is level. This is not a true calculation of MOI/swing weight BUT it is a measurement that correlates with swing weight. In my view it is an easy to understand method of measurement that should give consistent results from rod to rod for this type of rod fly evaluation.



    In my opinion, it is analogous to the flex chart they use for rod action. This is also a static measurement analogous to the Common Cents method of determining rod action BUT being a static test, it cannot tell us what the mass of the fly rod is or how fast the rod recovers from the cast.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  9. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Northern Colorado
    Posts
    240

    Default Re: 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    Quote Originally Posted by StaRQS View Post
    The only helpful thing in the shootout is the deflection chart imo.
    I sure agree with that, and I find those deflection charts to be really interesting and useful. About the only objective data you can generate on fly rods.

    EDIT: OK, plus the mass/Newtonian physics that Silver Creek wrote about, but most of us will go with the more subjective feel-in-hand take on that.

  10. Likes WNCtroutstalker liked this post
  11. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Oak Park, MI
    Posts
    770

    Default Re: 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    A few observations: GA obviously doesn't have an affinity for Sage or TFO. He never rates Sage well, having cast the LL 9-5 I just don't understand the low rating, it is a fine rod and way superior to the Circa, which did miss the mark. And with TFO, he never seems to test anything BUT the BVK, TFO introduced an Axiom II, Axiom IIx and re-did it's Finnese series in the last two seasons. For the record he was dead on with the BVK, the five is a six weight, and comes alive with a true to size 6 weight line.

    While I'm not sure this impacts his conclusions, I suspect GA wants to separate himself from the local competition and in one way I get it. I can't tell you how many shops are loaded to the brim with Sage-TFO-RIO-Simms-Ross just like the shop down the street and the mega-web shop. Those same shops would complain to me when I was a rep about Bass-Pro/Cabelas (at the time they were separate) and yet they carried the same stuff. I'm always impressed when a shop is willing to take a chance on a rejuvenated or new brand like T & T or Taylor. It's really hard for brands like those guys to get shelf placement and oxygen in this business.

    Like Sweetandsalt I do appreciate that element of the shootouts. I will tell you that the first shootout made my job as a Hardy rep a lot easier. And at the time the Zenith was one very exceptional rod, and deserving of it's win. Without the shoot out you could have cut the sales numbers in half especially considering Hardys marketing budget at the time. I suspect the impact of his shootouts isn't the same as it was when they were new. And I was impressed by the showing the Fenwick Fenlite and new Echo put up in the mid-priced category. I doubt I'll be able to cast them until the shows.

    One other note, I do agree with GA about the Fly Fishing "press" and show awards. For the most part they are worthless, we would go to the show every year to see what new awards the big mega brands got. While newer sometimes innovative companies were totally ignored.

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  13. #49

    Default Re: 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    Quote Originally Posted by dr d View Post
    "he who has the Gold make the rules"...


    thomas
    He who has the gold only gets it, if you let him have it!

    Luke

  14. Likes troutbum_74 liked this post
  15. #50

    Default 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

    Quote Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
    In a fly shop, I go by feel also.

    Swing weight has a very specific definition in physics. It is the Moment of Inertia (MOI). We all remember Newton's First Law of Motion = an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force. This is the law that describes inertia.

    In fly casting, Moment of Inertia (MOI) represents the inertia resistance of the fly rod to getting it to move/rotate and once it is moving/rotating, the resistance to getting it to stop moving/rotating. So higher MOI/swing weight fly rods take more force/energy to cast.

    There is a complicated method of calculating MOI.

    https://www.sexyloops.com/articles/swingweight.pdf

    Note that the link above states that MOI is highly dependent on the distribution of the mass and that mass toward the rod tip is much, much more important that mass at the rod base:

    "MOI is strongly dependent on mass distribution and distance from the axis of rotation. The dependence on distance from the axis is quadratic, so MOI increases with the square of distance to the axis of rotation. The following will generally be true:

    • Long rods will have higher MOI than shorter rods of similar build and/or mass.

    • Mass in the tip of the rod is much more important than the mass in the lower part of the rod (reel seat and grip).

    • Rods with heavy blanks will have higher MOI than rods with light blanks."


    With the above in mind, this is how Yellowstone Anglers calculates swing weight. It is at 3:20 in the video below. They "balance" the assembled fly rod with the rod handle on a scale and place force on the butt end of the rod grip until the rod is level. This is not a true calculation of MOI/swing weight BUT it is a measurement that correlates with swing weight. In my view it is an easy to understand method of measurement that should give consistent results from rod to rod for this type of rod fly evaluation.



    In my opinion, it is analogous to the flex chart they use for rod action. This is also a static measurement analogous to the Common Cents method of determining rod action BUT being a static test, it cannot tell us what the mass of the fly rod is or how fast the rod recovers from the cast.
    They want you to believe there is a solid method, so you will buy the rod and reel they want you to buy?

    It’s marketing; surely you guys know that - you guys wrote the book on it 2020 Yellowstone Angler 5 weight Shootout

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