New Yellowstone Angler 5wt Shootout

[BigCliff]

The Yellowstone Angler has just done a new exhaustive comparison of 18 9' 5wts on the market, many of which are quite new.

FlyRodReview.Best5weightflyrod.HardyZenith.SageZ-axis.WinstonB3x.WinstonBIIIx.LoomisNRX.SageVXP.StCroixLegendEliteTempleforkBVK

Maybe its because I'm cheap, but the new TFO BVK and Winston Passport look like the brightest shining values in the group.

They awarded the Hardy Zenith with the Blue Ribbon.

 

[caseywise]

thanks cliff,
great review! some real surprises in there.



casey

 

[wonderfulremark]

i love the reviews from these guys. thank you for posting this.
Hopefully they'll do another 8wt shootout too

 

[Pocono]

I fished out of George's shop a couple of years ago. They take their shoot-outs very seriously!

I was impressed by the data that they had collected for the previous shoot-out, where the Sage Z-Axis; then a new rod, had just edged the Loomis. George is a consultant for Loomis, so I was surprised to see the Z-Axis on top in that shoot-out; even more surprised to see the Hardy on top - and by a wide margin - in this shoot-out.

My local shop had tested the Hardy earlier this season and all I heard about it was that it was practically indestructible when you put tension on the blank; but I hadn't heard anything about the castability of the rod.

I'm definitely going to be casting the Hardy at the upcoming Fly Fishing Symposium in Somerset, NJ. Coming up at the end of January.

On the contrary, I've heard some really crumby repots on the new Winston BIIIx; particularly from those that fish the BIIx a lot.

Pocono

 

[FrankB2]

Burk started a thread a couple days ago about the Hardy winning the shootout. It was interesting to see how much they liked the Winston Passport, but Anderson states that rod is made overseas, while at the same time writing that the St. Croix Imperial is made in the USA. Wrong. It was a bit surprising to see George trash the BIIX after writing that it was his shop's best selling rod, so I guess he calls them like he sees them.

I mentioned in the other thread that Anderson is still testing 5wt's with a 5.5wt line. I'm reading Dave Hughes' book Trout from a Small Stream, and he likes to overline his rods by a full weight, even when all of his fishing friends (and the custom builders in a couple of cases) all fished Hughes' rods with the designated line. Hughes states in his Essential Trout Flies book that Anderson is one of the best nymph fishermen in this country, so maybe there are people that simply prefer heavier lines. I should have mentioned that Hughes expresses a strong preference for fast/stiff rods on small streams, so there's another thing he and Anderson share.

 

[hardhat]

All that really matters is how the rods perform. The price means you may get a good bang for the buck, but it should not mean a particular rod is rated better than another. Potential buyers can determine that value versus the actual performance. And, the actual performance should be measured by the test throws of potential buyers.

Where are the other custom blanks, like Dan Craft, TL Johnson, Batson, etc.


ALSO_LOOK AT THE RODS THEY SELL

 

[FrankB2]

I forgot to mention that the other reviewers had their own opinions, and should be read as well....if you're bored and really interested.

 

[mojo]

I'm not that big a fan of George Anderson's Shootout as some of you are. Testing the rods in Montana in December, and on the lawn or a gym with no wind proves what?
If you're going to evaluate fly rod, do it in the summer, on the river to do what they were designed to do- catch fish. Don't limit the fly lines to one specific line by just one manufacturer, use all the major line companies and the different series they make. Use DT, WF and even sink tip lines. That T&T that came in last place with another brand of line on it might have gone all the way to #1
All his ratings are are his and a few others opinions.
And FWIW, that's my opinion.
And if this don't beat all-
"If you've enjoyed our 5 weight shootout and are in the market for a new rod,
please support our efforts by purchasing a rod from us!"

Why not.

 

[hardhat]

Agreed MOJO - Again the rods should be rated as to how they performed for him and his group. So this test is their opinion only. Price and non performace points should not be factored in. That is up to the potential buyer to evaluate. On stream performance may change this whole line up.
This test should be used as a starting point for gathering information only. It is not and should not be used as a absolute reference or standard.
It is in the potential rod buyers interest to test out various rods and make their own decision.

 

[FrankB2]

It just occured to my that Anderson does these shootouts now because: 1) the new rods like the Hardy Zenith just came out; 2) people are getting ready for their new season purchases; 3) Anderson is bored during the winter months.

In Anderson's defense, he states that he and his gang have fished for years, around the world, and with many different rods. While Anderson certainly has a preference for a particular type of rod, I would guess that he can form a valid opinion by handling them in a gym/lawn. Many (most?) anglers buy rods based on a few minutes of casting in the parking lot, so Anderson's shootout goes way beyond that.

 

[BigCliff]

I agree with lots of points raised here guys-

Casting a rod only inside isn't really relevant to how they fish. This is one point I focused on in my review of the Redington CT. If I just took it out back at my local shop to cast it, I doubt it would shine half as bright as it does on the water.

Casting a 5.5wt line on all of them is "fair" but doesn't always make the most sense. (It sounds like the Winston Passport in particular would have done better with the SA Trout line on it.)

Its just some guys' opinions and there's no way to remove all subjectivity from it.

And yes, they're probably doing it because there's lots of new stuff out and they're bored.

Another thing to keep in mind if you read the results for the fishing conditions they had in mind, is they're thinking primarily of throwing big stuff/heavy rigs on big rivers in the wind. It seems like the mindset they approach the test with wouldn't be very relevant in tighter streams in the East. George himself may have helped design Sage's 389 and 490 LL classics, but it sounds like that type of rod would have been viewed as a heavy wimp in this test. (I fished mine Sat and I still LOVE it)

 

[bjweller]

Thanks for the review!

 

[burk48237]

I'm not that big a fan of George Anderson's Shootout as some of you are. Testing the rods in Montana in December, and on the lawn or a gym with no wind proves what?
If you're going to evaluate fly rod, do it in the summer, on the river to do what they were designed to do- catch fish. Don't limit the fly lines to one specific line by just one manufacturer, use all the major line companies and the different series they make. Use DT, WF and even sink tip lines. That T&T that came in last place with another brand of line on it might have gone all the way to #1
All his ratings are are his and a few others opinions.
And FWIW, that's my opinion.
And if this don't beat all-
"If you've enjoyed our 5 weight shootout and are in the market for a new rod,
please support our efforts by purchasing a rod from us!"

Why not.

In fairness to George A. I know for a fact he was not carrying the Hardy rods, when he did this test. I suspect he has committed to them since. The SW rods have been getting a lot of buzz with Andy Mills, but this was the first serious run thru of the FW rods in the series.

As far as partiality, I can tell you right now that no one is worse in this industry then its magazines when it comes to playing up to big advertisers. Just try to get a mention of a new product, much less a review without running an adv. in this industries mags.

As far as selling them with the shootout, why not? Doing the shootout is a big service if it's done fairly. Why not try to get paid for service? I know this business is full of people who would boycott their mother if the online guy is .50 cents less. But if you live in a town without a fly shop (like I do) you begin to appreciate good service and the investment in inventory it takes to offer customers a chance to compare product. Half of the on line shops in this business don't actually stock anything, they just drop ship from the manufacturer.

 

[swoz]

I sent Yellowstone Anglers this mail (sorry for my bad English writing):

Dear people from Montana,

thank you for making efforts to test flyrods! Although, from my point of view, this test is not informative at all. I try to explain what I mean...

Good long distance runners always never do workouts in groups. Because the speed and intensity of a group will only by chance be the right one for the individual runner. ...

Good and experienced flyfishermen (and -woman) and flycasters spend a lot of concentration to find out the right lines for their rods, because only with the right line, your rod is doing the best it isable to. It is the rod-line-combination, that makes a good rod a perfect rod for a flyfisher!

The (theoretically) best car is doing bad with the wrong tires!

To test different flyrods using the same flyline and, moreover, with lines of the same weight, is a very strange strategy in order to review flyrods. Especially at these times, when the technology allows the brands to produce rods with much more power, compared to rods of former times. There are 3wt rods on the market, which cast some 5wt lines effortlessly. Reading in your review about the lesser ability of some rods to cast short distances, I get the impression, that your testers should have tried these rods with heavier lines. They would have found out, that some of the rods would cast perfectly then with shorter line-lenght and also perfectly at long distance casts, due to the butt-power of these rods.

So, the result of your test can only be: with this special Scientific Anglers 5 wt line, these leaders etc. , the Hardy model is the best... Not your testers found out the best rod, the line did it by saying: "I like the Hardy best..!"

If you had tested the rods with another line-type and other line-weights. the result would be a different one!

So, according to me, it would be a good idea, to find out the best lines for the specific rods, invest your energy in this matter. And, if finally you would have found out the right combinations, only than it would be correct to start comparing the casting-abilities of the rods.

Again, thank you for your efforts anyway. I would be glad if you could pay a little more attention to the matters I mentioned above, when testing again some flyrods!

Greetings from Austria!

Peter Swozilek

 

[fredaevans]

Well said Peter, I agree fully. To expand on your view try testing 2-hander (Spey) rods using 'just' one line.

Edit: Forgot to add a warm welcome from 'My Side of the Pond.'

Fred

 

[FrankB2]

Hello Peter!

While many people have expressed concern about the GPX line used, Anderson listed several reasons for doing so, and most had nothing to do with it being 1/2 line weight heavier. Anderson also noted that a 6wt GPX line was on hand (and used), and that some of the stiffer rods did better with a 6wt line. The time ot would take to have four testers find the ideal line for each of 20 rods would be considerable, and the next generation of rods would be ready for testing by then. I think the GPX is a great all around line, but do use a true 5wt line for fishing dry flies, and unweighted nymphs on small streams. The line issue is discussed in the counter points written by the other 3 reviewers (note that the main review is only George Anderson's opinion, and the others testers ranked the rods differently), and at least one of the other testers stated that the Winston BIIIX would have placed much better with a true 5wt line. I was a bit concerned about the testing, but after reading the main article again, and looking at the counter points (which were much more detailed this time around), I can draw conclusions of my own. It's certainly better than the worthless "reviews" seen in magazines. They tend to be press releases, and make Yellowstone Angler's test look brilliant.

 

[Pocono]

Welcome Peter!

George performed what's known as a one parameter test; he varied only one parameter; the rod. The other three key parameters; the reel, the line, and the environment he held as constant as he could.

Is a one parameter test the perfect experiment; no it's not. But if you like the new version of the Ross Evolution, if you're not strongly opposed to GPX line and if you feel that you can gather some useful information from casting not performed on the water, then the outcome of George's shootout can provide you with some reasonable information; at least information that you can put to the test yourself.

I don't find George's test to be offensive. Would I use it to run right out and purchase a new rod; no. But, would I use it to go out and test a series of rods; I certainly think so.

Not trying to be overly argumentative, but I don't see why reasonable information has to be bashed so thoroughly. What's your favorite 5 wt., by the way?

Pocono

 

[damato1969co]

My two cents,
I dont know how anyone alse tests rods but thats usually the way I do and most people I know. Throwing rods beside each other is really the true way to get a feel for the rod and fishing with it later will show the other true aspects of your rod chosen. Dont know of too many fly shops handing out 700.00 rods to fish and then purchase. Now it may be true some rods will perform differently with other lines but to get a general feel there is no better way unless there is a lake or river by your local fly shop. Seems like a pretty un-biased test and of course he sells rods, it is a working fly shop! If you think he is wrong go and throw some for yourself and see what you think. You might find some of the opinions are spot on, or maybe not. At least you will know for yourself. Personally, have not thrown every rod he has at one time as most of us Im sure do not have access to that many, but I thought many of his points were correct. Including my first big buy, nothing threw as smooth as the Z-axis I have ever thrown and I bought it after throwing it against many rods. Never regret that buy. Love that rod.....

---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

Oh and my point being-threw the Hardy Zenith at the Fly Fishing show here in Denver. Only had a couple minutes with it but seemed damn nice. Very impressed but plan on getting more time with it in two weeks on release date. Great looking rod and very lightweight. Hopefully post more upon further review of the rod. Hopefully anyone will submit some opinions on the rod.

 

[chicagojohn]

It was a bit surprising to see George trash the BIIX after writing that it was his shop's best selling rod, so I guess he calls them like he sees them.

I mentioned in the other thread that Anderson is still testing 5wt's with a 5.5wt line. I'm reading Dave Hughes' book Trout from a Small Stream, and he likes to overline his rods by a full weight, even when all of his fishing friends (and the custom builders in a couple of cases) all fished Hughes' rods with the designated line.

The one problem I have with the shootout is the use of one line in an effort to keep comparisons “apples to apples.” Various rod actions like the older Winston BIIX are not necessarily made to handle line a half size up like the GPX, and are therefore handicapped by the added weight. I could see over lining a fast action rod to make short casts easier on small trout streams, but that doesn’t mean you would always use that rod with line a full size heavier.

Trashing the BIIX in the previous shootout, while writing a disclaimer that the Tom Morgan Rodsmith’s rod could not be included in the 2011 shootout is unfair not only to Winston and Tom Morgan Rodsmith’s, but to many of the other rod manufacturers that create fly rods tapered for a standard line weight. The shootout poorly rated the Orvis Helios mid-flex which isn’t well suited for a GPX line, just like a Sage ZXL, another quality moderate fast rod, would flounder with a heavier line. The Helios tip-flex would have been better suited for a shootout with GPX line. Why not create three categories based on tapors of moderate, medium-fast, and fast action rods where each rod could use a line that was best suited for its action and rated against other rods in its immediate class?

Please do not misinterpret what I am saying. I enjoy the shootout reviews and enjoy reading the opinions presented by the testers. The review was done nearly as well as it could have been by an individual fly shop, given the enormity of the task. One way to make it better would be to use a line weight specified by each manufacturer for optimal performance to ensure a true “apples to apples” comparison of each rod’s best qualities. I am sure that each manufacturer would want its product represented in the best way possible in line with OEM specs, especially since Yellowstone Angler has already spent plenty of time analyzing all of the other categories. It is also hard to duplicate the drag that water places on a fly line by casting on grass or a gym floor and then assuming that one line weight would be the best choice for such a large sample size.

Finally, it is difficult to say one rod is better than another without saying something negative about the lower rated rod. It appeared that a few of the comments got a little personal towards some of the rod manufacturers this time around. Scott Fly Rod Co. somehow always manages to take the brunt of the shootout comments. I do not own a Scott fly rod, but have casted the Scott S4 and thought it got an unfair shake in the shootout. Whether you are a fan of Winston, Tom Morgan Rodsmiths, Sage, Orvis, Scott, or another brand, it is hard to see any manufacturer trashed in such a competitive market, when each company was not allowed to display its product in a way best representing its original design intent.

 

[Fly2Fish]

The one problem I have with the shootout is the use of one line in an effort to keep comparisons “apples to apples.” Various rod actions like the older Winston BIIX are not necessarily made to handle line a half size up like the GPX, and are therefore handicapped by the added weight. I could see over lining a fast action rod to make short casts easier on small trout streams, but that doesn’t mean you would always use that rod with line a full size heavier.

Trashing the BIIX in the previous shootout, while writing a disclaimer that the Tom Morgan Rodsmith’s rod could not be included in the 2011 shootout is unfair not only to Winston and Tom Morgan Rodsmith’s, but to many of the other rod manufacturers that create fly rods tapered for a standard line weight. The shootout poorly rated the Orvis Helios mid-flex which isn’t well suited for a GPX line, just like a Sage ZXL, another quality moderate fast rod, would flounder with a heavier line. The Helios tip-flex would have been better suited for a shootout with GPX line. Why not create three categories based on tapors of moderate, medium-fast, and fast action rods where each rod could use a line that was best suited for its action and rated against other rods in its immediate class?

Please do not misinterpret what I am saying. I enjoy the shootout reviews and enjoy reading the opinions presented by the testers. The review was done nearly as well as it could have been by an individual fly shop, given the enormity of the task. One way to make it better would be to use a line weight specified by each manufacturer for optimal performance to ensure a true “apples to apples” comparison of each rod’s best qualities. I am sure that each manufacturer would want its product represented in the best way possible in line with OEM specs, especially since Yellowstone Angler has already spent plenty of time analyzing all of the other categories. It is also hard to duplicate the drag that water places on a fly line by casting on grass or a gym floor and then assuming that one line weight would be the best choice for such a large sample size.

Finally, it is difficult to say one rod is better than another without saying something negative about the lower rated rod. It appeared that a few of the comments got a little personal towards some of the rod manufacturers this time around. Scott Fly Rod Co. somehow always manages to take the brunt of the shootout comments. I do not own a Scott fly rod, but have casted the Scott S4 and thought it got an unfair shake in the shootout. Whether you are a fan of Winston, Tom Morgan Rodsmiths, Sage, Orvis, Scott, or another brand, it is hard to see any manufacturer trashed in such a competitive market, when each company was not allowed to display its product in a way best representing its original design intent.

Well said!