Time To Talk About Some New Fly Swaps;

[Ard]

We have yet to figure out all the details to help this new generation of swaps go really smoothly but thought to put some ideas forward and get some feedback.

Do you think it would be good if our fly tying swaps were done in categories such as; Beginner & Advanced? I would like to hear thoughts from others on this concept please.

We have 2 members who have volunteered to act as coordinators for swaps so no one person will be overwhelmed by the task.

We don't have any standard means for all participants to mail flies in the same containers, so if you have any ideas please post them. We also don't have a treasury, so we will all have to pony up for postage...... Swappers should know that they will have to include return postage so that flies can be returned to them after they are swapped. The container you mail in will be the one you get back so return postage should be easy to figure.

The time table for the swaps to be completed is going to be shorter than previous swaps. 4 - 5 weeks should be plenty of time for tying 12 flies and getting them mailed in. Once a deadline date for the flies to be received by the coordinator is set, that date will be the deadline date. Flies received by the date will be distributed to those who sent in flies. Those that arrive late will be returned to sender.

That deadline thing may sound harsh but......many of the last half dozen swaps had people who never sent the flies. There were other issues but that is what this thread is about, trying to get things going again

Persons who join a swap roster and then experience some sort of injury or difficulty that will prevent them from participating will have to notify by posting to the swap thread or PM to that swaps coordinator.

If you have ideas that you would like to express that you believe will make this fly swapping a better experience for all who wish to participate in them, please post those thoughts to this thread.

Feedback here will be considered before modifying the existing Swap Guidlines.

Thanks

Ard

 

[dean_mt]

Thanks for re-starting this Ard. I participated in quite a few swaps that last year or so.

-On classifying beginner and advanced: I do not think that every swap should be classified, and here's why. I think that general swaps should mostly be about swapping flies for the fun of it. They are also really great practice tools for beginning and novice tyers because you have to tie a minimum of a dozen flies of a single pattern, swappers feel a bit of camaraderie and can ask for and readily receive advice, and in the end newer tyers get to see a bunch of different flies with some or many tied by really good tyers. That said, I think that a coordinator and/or a member can request that a swap be novice or advanced. Basically, I think it should be on a swap by swap basis.

Return postage: Mark always allowed people to send $2 along if they didn't want to include postage. I think it should be a rule that you include a self addressed envelope with the postage on it along with your flies. It just doesn't seem fair to the coordinator to have to go to the PO and stand in line and have to buy padded envelopes, get them weighed, buy the postage...etc. It is quite easy when you go to mail you flies to buy a second envelope with the same amount of postage and stick inside the other.

Containers: I think that would a tricky one to try to regulate.

Anyway, my thoughts on it. And a PM coming to you Ard...

 

[Liphookedau]

Hi Ard.
It would be good to see The Swaps up & Running again,however who Runs them has a massive Task in front of them.
I've been in quite a few swaps & as Dean has said I don't think there is any need for different Categories,the reason being I recieved Flies from Novices as well as well as others who have Tied for years & The Quality of The Flies The Newcomers/Learners Tied were excellent.

All I did to Transport The Flies was to Tape The Bend to prevent anyone being Pricked,Put each Fly in A Small Ziplok Bag with A Toe Tag,place each set of Flies in a Larger Bag then send them in a Padded Bag.
It might have been a bit of trouble as I had to print out The Tags with all The Info,source The Small Bags,however Mark always said The Flies had arrived OK.
For The Return Postage I just sent a Card Or A Letter with some US Cash in it.
Brian

 

[stl_geoff]

Im glad the swaps are going to start back up again.

I think the swapps should stay unclassed. I thought about this for a moment and a little voice in my head said yes, device them do flies sent out are all of equal skill level. Then something clicked, we need to have all levels in one swap so the less experianced and beginners can see the techniques and methods used once they get more fimilar with the flies they will hopefully want to tie someday. That to me is worth getting some flies that "may be under your skill level". It helps out quiet a bit being able to see how a certain method is exicuted.

The $2 for return shipping was nice since I could use the USPS account at work and throw some cash in there. I dont know if I can make myself a return label, but we give it whirl.

Lets start swapping!!!

 

[williamhj]

I also like the idea of not dividing the skill levels, though leaving the door open for some to be limited to advanced tiers for traditional salmon flies etc. How it gets regulated might be tough, perhaps the people signing up just vouch for themselves?

Though it might be tough to regulate containers, it doesn't seem unrealistic to ask folks to purchase this type of box. It's cheap, available from many different places, and are also useful. If flies are sent back in the same container then it can just be reused.

I like the firm deadline idea, removes questions and waiting, etc.

 

[Ard]

Thank you all, I will place a 'Like' on every reply so you know they are read. This is what we need ........... feedback from the members. Once this thread has had some view time we'll get a swap decided and scheduled

 

[la_jolla1]

On the UK site, the originator of the swap becomes the coordinator - but that would require a US-based initiator or coordinator. It would though really spread the burden around.

 

[dean_mt]

I also like the idea of not dividing the skill levels, though leaving the door open for some to be limited to advanced tiers for traditional salmon flies etc. How it gets regulated might be tough, perhaps the people signing up just vouch for themselves?

Though it might be tough to regulate containers, it doesn't seem unrealistic to ask folks to purchase this type of box. It's cheap, available from many different places, and are also useful. If flies are sent back in the same container then it can just be reused.

I like the firm deadline idea, removes questions and waiting, etc.

Firm deadline is important and I think was what became a problem in the end. And I'm not pointing fingers. Mark was very gracious, but 4 weeks is plenty of time ... if you sign up you want to tie flies and the timeline shouldn't be an issue.

I still think that the old rule of "your flies will be returned in the container they came in" is a good one...as long as the return mailing is equal to the outgoing shipping is included. The USPS is getting really strict about everything, if you haven't noticed. And on the flip side, I don't think that any sender should have to pay more than necessary to get their flies, i.e. the blanket $2 cost doesn't really apply to everyone.

 

[s fontinalis]

Couple things from me.
Swaps are great. I participated in Many, and suggested a few different topics for swaps.

I think the topic of the swap initially dictates the complexity eg. nymphs vs classics salmon flies for instance. Each tyer knows their limits both in terms of skill and financially and should be able to decide for themselves if a swap is for them. I'd say 95% of the swaps the last year were 'open to all'

Firm deadline, 4 weeks from the swap being suggested is perfect. It allows late comers to get the opportunity to enter. however, I'd suggest making the ship date for flies a few days before the deadline, to ensure all flies get there in time. after this date noone else would be allowed to sign up and all flies should be out. While the end date would be firm, postal delays are inevitable - i think it should be at the swap masters discretion to wait a day or so beyond the end date if he believes that flies are legitimately 'on their way' - a proof of postage receipt from the swapper dated at least 3 days prior to the end date would be required for this 'exception'
Of course, the ideal situation here is to get your flies tied and shipped ASAP. If the swap coordinator receives all flies from all swappers prior to the end date, he should turn them around without waiting to the 'official' end date.

Containers - Altoids tin is perfect. even if you dont like Altoids, $2 for a small tin is the cheapest way to get a robust container.

Postage - should be Stamped and addressed - the coordinator then only has to drop all envelopes in a mail box. I know from my own standpoint i tried to recycle envelopes - which required the coordinator to use some scotch tape to reseal the return envelope - is this beyond the requirements of the coordinator.


Last year i got quite annoyed about swaps and withdrew from a number of them, both those where flies had been submitted and those which hadn't.

I dont think toe tags on flies are essential, but i think everyone should at least post one photo (we all like to take photos of our flies) on the thread, or in a central 'swap album'. This also reduced the burden on the swap coordinator to photograph every single fly and post images. Perhaps its possible for admin to set up a 'swap photo thread or album for each swap, where the tyers can post their photo and recipe of their fly.

Just some ideas.

Also, i'm willing to be a coordinator on a rotation basis with the other volunteers.

Eunan

 

[Pocono]

Hmmmm..............new Fly Swaps; a very good idea!

I've been living a little under a rock for the past 6 months, maybe longer, but I have my tying table set up now in a new location (the one I used in the Poconos) and my vise is looking at me longingly, or vice verssa, on a daily basis.

I have some level of experience in coordinating Fly Swaps, so here are my views:

- I think that, as others have said, they should remain unclassified (as to level; beginner, intermediate, advanced). I think that it's great experience for the beginners to jump into a swap that's going to be based on flies that they'll use for their own fishing. And since a lot of us have experienced that perfectly tyed flies and flies that still need some attention seem to catch fish at about the same rate (admittedly, perfectly tyed flies are much better at catching fishermen!), I think that it's a good idea to mix the skill levels in swaps.

- I think that containers should be whatever works for you, as long as you would not mind receiving your swap flies back in the same container. The vast majority of flies that I received from swap members came in Altoid tins; which seem to work just fine for all but the largest flies.

- I think that the option of including self-addressed envelops (as long as they're large enough to handle the containers that the swap flies are apt to come back to you in; say, for instance, an Altoid tin), or the money necessary to cover the envelop and the postage (usually in the range of $2-3), should be kept.

- In terms of timing; that's probably the toughest parameter. Getting a shorter timeline does two things: 1. it captures the excitement and momentum of starting up a swap, and 2. it gets people to the bench right away; instead of having the swap end up on your mental list of things-to-do and then wind up being done at the last possible moment. But, there are situations that make that difficult, sometimes. All in all, I like the idea of a short timeline, but might suggest that you stretch it a week to, say, 6 weeks, because it sometimes takes a couple of weeks to get your materials in hand.

- As to the type of flies for swaps, I think that a good approach is to have swaps that are timed so that the type of flies that will be most likely to get fish at a certain time of the season are received in that season. So, perhaps a Nymph Swap early in the season, a Dry Swap for late Spring/early Summer, a Terrestrial Swap for the dog days of Summer, a Streamer Swap (my favorite!) - anytime, and maybe a Fancy Fly Swap (Salmon of Steelhead, etc.) for the late Fall, early Winter (maybe with a longer deadline time...). I realize that we have a mix of geographies on this forum; which I think is great, and that this could cut against the grain of what I've suggested, but I think, overall, it's not a bad concept.

Thanks for picking this up; I'll be in on the first one!


Pocono

 

[noreaster]

These are just some thoughts and opinions on the swap idea, and are just meant as that, my 2 cents.

I love the swap idea. But I may not be up to this task skill wise. I have been tying off and on since I was 15 with many yearly lay overs. However I have only so much pattern experience, materials, and skill level.

I have seen outstanding tying skills here. I like the idea of a wide open swap. Many fishermen have many different approaches to tying and I break away from patterns, and tradition, trying to hit what works locally. Others use color combinations that work .

The approach to a swap, I think, is important. For me what's most important is the follow through to give not receive. To share patterns with like minded folk that have produced fish.

I only tie for trout. I only tie what I need locally for sea run brookies. Sometimes my tying supplies are low and improv. is the name of the game. If the swap had categories like Proven Trout ,Salmon or Other patterns, and that's it. Whats important is that they are proven.

Then there is no pressure no one has any big expectations or standards to have to meet then it is just plain fun. Once the swap partners are determined, they can workout any additional details of their swap through private messaging.

Folks should enter a swap prepared and wllingto accept the fact that they may not receive anything or what they do receive will be of lesser quality than what they give. This way it is all about sharing, keeping the 'teacher/student' approach and preserving the culture of this wonderful art form.

 

[theboz]

The most important part if the swap is to be within the deadline. This way nothings holding up the swap coordinator and people can get the flys back in a timely fashion.
One other thing is moaning. If you have a complaint do it in a pm so no one gets singled out or gets embarrassed. If you can't solve your complaint that way then speak to an administrator . No moaning in public!

 

[dean_mt]

Good input from two the best tyers on here! Thanks Eunan and Allan.

 

[Rip Tide]

On the UK site, the originator of the swap becomes the coordinator - It would though really spread the burden around.

That's the way it works on most other sites
No reason why it couldn't work here

 

[Ard]

On the UK site, the originator of the swap becomes the coordinator - but that would require a US-based initiator or coordinator. It would though really spread the burden around.

Here's a for instance; our swaps went off track in the past year. We have had some members host swaps that did a wonderful job of it in the past also. Now after both the good and the bad, we're going to try to re-organize things a bit.

What I'm going to say now is my own opinion and not anything else. If there is no control over how many swaps are running at once or who is responsible for coordinating those swaps............. I can see a possibility for problems. I believe where the swaps went off track was when we had a whole bunch going at the same time. Granted we had one guy trying to handle all of it but the shear number of swaps made it hard to follow. I think that if the forum is going to be a hosting site for these swaps, then we need to have some means of making sure things run smoothly.

Taking on the responsibility for receiving 144 flies from 12 different members around the country may sound like a fun thing to do (not to me) but it will be just that; a responsibility. I think it would be a good thing if we have a few members who are willing to do the collection and dispersal to let them do it and to develop a system that works.

 

[Pocono]

I'll host a swap; time to get back in the water.................!

Pocono

 

[jaybo41]

Ard, thanks for seeking input on the fly swaps from the forum members.

Most of the other forums I have been on or browse have the swaps setup so that anyone who wants to host a swap can do so and that person is the organizer. The results have always been pretty good. This way, the person who actually wants to start the swap has a little more motivation to get the packages and disperse them. I for one could not see getting flies in every month collecting and dispersing. That would get old pretty fast, at least for me. When I retire, I might have a different opinion on that but for now, no way I'd want to do that repeatedly. This is a pretty solid group of active members here, I think this could work here too.

Disclosure: Of the 4 swaps I have been in, I hosted one of them.

I won't ask or speculate on what has gone on in the past, but if it is determined that things should be dialed back to 2 swaps at one time with 2 designated coordinators, then that's OK by me too.

I am also one who thinks that most swaps should be open to all tiers. I remember doing my first one and there is a bit of nervousness sending out a batch of flies to guys who are much better than you. Those guys were always pretty good to me in terms of accepting my fly and even giving me pointers. That's what I like about keeping them open. Camaraderie. Having said this, I also like the idea of from time to time, a theme being a newbie swap or an advanced swap. Just to mix things up a bit. Toe tags are kind of a pain but do-able. I like Eunan's idea of posting a photo with some instruction in it. Saves trees and it also is a great reference for the entire forum. In case somebody doesn't have a camera, I'm sure another poster would be happy to take the photo and the tier can post the recipe.

I do like the idea of a set timeline, though maybe around Christmas or other holidays/major events, there can be exceptions. Again, most of the forums I have been on the deadline is set by those participating. The other thing that I always thought cool was that they tied extras for the mods or the host. If nothing else, I think an extra fly or two for the host is a great touch and good form. This was more or less an unwritten "rule".

As for postage. Everyone should be responsible for their own return postage. If you don't do it, you don't get your flies. Period. Use whatever box you like, mail it however you like and make sure that return packaging is included. What's worked for me is to get a foam envelope from the PO or wherever, take to the counter, pay for shipping on one and the return shipping on the other. Simple. An extra trip to the PO, sure, but worth it to me to get my flies and not place burden on the coordinator.

Last but not least, update the sticky with the new protocols. That is probably a given though. Everyone in the swap can be referred there for questions, instructions, guidelines, etc. Every swap is done with the same protocols and how they are run is clear to all. Maybe there should be a minimum post requirement to help keep active members in the mix? Also, maybe a no tolerance policy or a feedback system of sorts? Not sure how that can be done. Maybe a designated moderator overseeing the individual swaps? Maybe a requirement to run a swap? Just some random thoughts here. 99% here won't have any problems, I'm sure.
Thanks for taking time to solicit opinion and for reading my thoughts.

 

[Liphookedau]

Unfortunayuely for many reasonsI can't volunteer my services,the main one being the Costs involved for everyone as it usually cost $10-$12 to send a Small Packet to The US,that's why I usually like to go in 3 or 4 Swaps at once.

I can only send an Envelope/Packet without Stamps as The Return Swaps have to have US Stamps on them as,naturally,ours aren't recognised.
The Last thing I wouldn't like to see would be someone out of Pocket,as to speak & as mentioned most costs will be different,also it would be good if I could Tranfer Funds or pay through USPS to cover costs,I know I can do it via Pay Pal.
Brian.

 

[jaybo41]

Sorry about that Liphookedau, didn't meant to purposely exclude or offend any of our non US/North American members. My previous comment about postage assumes US members which clearly should be revisited. There should be a precedent for folks from other countries because I'd hate to exclude anyone. Sounds like you have a pretty good system worked out from past swaps that should be taken into consideration.

 

[kayo]

I'll host a swap; time to get back in the water.................!

Pocono

count me in pocono...