stainless steel hook with silver wire breaking

[oldguide]

hi all.

inspired by my post on this topic
http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/f...ts-your-favorite-permit-fly-2.html#post813678
I set up a little experiment, trying to find out what may have caused the breaking of stainless steel hooks in saltwater (in my case, unfortunately, in 3 permit hook-ups).

as mentioned, I put 4 hooks from different manufacturers in 3.5% (the average salt concentration in the carribean acc. to wiki) saltwater. after 24 h I got the following result:

quite amazing, I think. of course you as well as me knew that hooks, even stainless steel rust in saltwater, and I am always rinsing my flies (as well as all my gear used) in freshwater at the end of the day. what was quite surprising to me was the fact that the attachment of silver(-plated) wire will dramatically accellerate this process. so much so as in my case to make a hook fail or break on the strip-strike just after a few hours of getting wet.

starting at 12 o clock the hooks used were:
TMC 800S #4
MUSTAD S71SNP-DT #4
Eagle Claw L067 #2
Partridge CS52 #2

2 stainless steel hooks and 2 plated hooks.

then I put on a 10lb fluorocarbon leader to test for breaking. on 3 hooks the leader broke, while on the TMC a slight pull of less than 5 pounds resulted in a break at the point where the silver wire was placed around the hook shank (and heavy rusting had occured as seen in picture 1).

this TMC 800S in size 4 is my favorite hook for this fly pattern. to be fair I have to note that the Eagle Claw and Partridge hooks were of a much stronger wire. and as you can clearly see, also the MUSTAD, which is a tin plated hook I think, showed rusting around the silver wire. this could have resulted in a break after some longer incubation.

the message of this to you all would be, do not use stainless steel hooks in combination with silver-plated wire in (warm) saltwater. I think this effect occurs due to a chemical reaction of a combination of more nobel with less nobel metal.

as you can imagine, this little experiment just is the start for a whole new series of more esperiments, incubating all different kind of wire in combination with stainless steel hooks. one combination will be to test the effect of tin-lead solder (which I use for weighting my pattern) on stainless steel, and also if a coating of the hook shank with 2 layers of well varnished tying thread can prevent such an effect. somehow it makes me sad to sacrifice perfectly nice fly hooks, but on the other hand, if this should result in landing the next 1 or 2 permit I hook, it can be well worth all these effort.

as you can see in this post, I have already modified the tying method for my favorite permit fly.

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-patterns/368767-miss-p-no-2-a.html

although I think the silver gives a nice touch to this fly in addition to holding the shell back, I have decided to switch to clear mono/fluorocarbon to avoid possible porblems as mentioned above. in addition, I use 2 layers of tying thread coated well with varnish before attaching the tin-lead solder wire for weighting.

but I will not stop at that. these flies will be put in saltwater for prolonged periods of time now to find out if and when they fail to give me more faith in my flies when I go back to the salt.

and one last question to all:
anybody else ever experienced "unexplainable" hook failure in saltwater?
I mean, a new fly on a new hook and the point breaks when setting the hook or fighting a fish.

best,
Wolfgang

 

[deceiverbob]

The wire in contact with the hook when immersed in an electrolyte (salt water) is causing galvanic corrosion. In effect you have created a tiny battery. The small electric current flowing between the wire and hook causes the hook to break down faster.

 

[oldguide]

hi all.

well, to my shame, I have to admit, I knew this thing with the battery. I studied biology from 1985 to 1990. for the final exams, we had 4 major subjects, one of which for me was organic chemistry. in the first 2 years of my study, we had a class called physical chemisty (dont know if this is called the same in english). anyway, there is where we learned all these things about electrolytes and batteries and such - and to tell you the truth - I hated it.

but how would I know that I was haunted by this more than 20 years later.

if you take one of these TMC 800S and you want to bend or break it, you will have a hard time, even with some pliers.
in my case it just broke like that. of course I am sad that this may have caused loosing 2 or 3 permit. on the other hand, I was quite surprised as well as very happy to find out the possible reason behind all that. because now, or let´s say after all these other experiments are finished, my flies should hold.

best,
Wolfgang

 

[duker]

This is an interesting thread. Now I'm wondering about using any kind of metal on a stainless steel hook for saltwater--what about tying on lead/tungsten eyes or bead chain eyes? Would it have the same galvanic effect?

There are various grades of stainless steel, all with different strengths and weaknesses. Some stainless steels will rust under the right (or wrong) conditions; others will not rust but may bend more easily or not hold an edge (in the case of knives) or point (in the case of hooks) as well. I wonder what grade the various manufacturers use in their stainless steel hooks, and what properties they're choosing those steels for.

Scott

 

[deceiverbob]

Any dissimilar metals in contact will have a galvanic effect. The strength of the effect depends on the metals involved. The effects of galvanic corrosion can be lessened or minimized by isolating the differing metals from each other.

 

[moucheur2003]

in the first 2 years of my study, we had a class called physical chemisty (dont know if this is called the same in english).

Yes, it is. My daughter is about to get her bachelor's degree in physical chemistry (or "p-chem" for short, as the students call it), and has been admitted to 8 Ph. D. programs!

She has a hard time understanding my fishing addiction, and I can't even begin to understand whatever it is that she is studying. Maybe I should refer her to these discussions for a little father-daughter bonding.

 

[oldguide]

how about a masters or phd thesis in p-chem about the effects of different metals (tin, lead, chrome-plated, silver, etc.) on stainless steel hooks? now you just need to find a professor who is fly fishing in saltwater ...
best,
Wolfgang

 

[moucheur2003]

how about a masters or phd thesis in p-chem about the effects of different metals (tin, lead, chrome-plated, silver, etc.) on stainless steel hooks? now you just need to find a professor who is fly fishing in saltwater ...
best,
Wolfgang

Too down-to-earth for her! She's modeling atmospheric chemical reactions and climate change (as best I can describe it). More arcane, but probably at least as necessary in the long run...

Übrigens wohnte ich seit vier Jahre in Düsseldorf, als ich Bube war. Hab ich aber nie nach Regensburg gereist. Hab ich auch nie im Rhein gefischt!

 

[fredaevans]

The wire in contact with the hook when immersed in an electrolyte (salt water) is causing galvanic corrosion. In effect you have created a tiny battery. The small electric current flowing between the wire and hook causes the hook to break down faster.

Dead on. This is why they put 'sacraficial blocks' on ships (smaller ones usually on the prop) to counter act this exact thing.

 

[chechem]

Dead on. This is why they put 'sacraficial blocks' on ships (smaller ones usually on the prop) to counter act this exact thing.

zinc blocks