tying questions about weighting flies

[wthorpe]

I almost learned to tie flies about 10 years ago, but gave it up. Now, I am back at it. I have many questions. Here are some of the more pressing ones at the moment:
1. I am having problems with the body turning on the hook shank, I think only when I try to tie on lead or lead substitute. I have made up to ten turns of fine lead or substitute wire and really focused on pushing the tied lead (or sub) into the back of a bead. Is there a trick to securing the weighting that I might be missing?
2. When flies are sold commercially, especially bead-headed nymphs and small streamers, are they ever / typically sold with weight wrapped underneath?
3. What combos of beaded; brass, copper, tungsten; wrapped weight on fly underbody; both beaded and weighted; and neither beaded nor weighted do folks typically tie? Would you typically use less weight for say a dropper behind a hopper or other dry and more wt for deeper nymphing? If you use a variety of these combos how do you keep straight which is which in a fly box? What is the advantage/disadvantage to weighting the fly itself as opposed to using weight on the leader?

 

[Ard]

I don't tie many with weight as you describe but have. You need a good bed of thread covering the hook shank and the wire or other material must be anchored securely. Then it should be wrapped tightly and over wrapped with more thread.

Whenever I took time to properly bed and anchor the lead wire there were no problems with bodies turning on the shank.

I fully realize that a majority of trout caught in the lower 48 are caught using these weighted nymphs. I would venture that there are also a good number of them lost due to hanging up on the bottom. I never liked that part and quickly shied away from their use. Here where I fish there is a need to get flies down deep in most situations. I do this by building my own sinking leaders and not by weighting the flies themselves. The result is that I catch more fish than bottom. The exception to the weight rule are my Sculpin patterns but they are often used in very swift water and the weighted heads are a necessary evil there.

Ard

 

[nevadanstig]

I don't have any problems with the flies turning, and don't wrap the hook shank prior to lead either.
Just make sure your lead is wrapped good and tight. Start thread just behind the lead, and form a nice tapered "ramp" leading up to the lead. Then do two or three passes over the lead itself. A few of those wraps should actually go through the lead, so make sure your thread is small enough and you're applying enough tension in order to do that.
I do use heavily weighted flies myself. I tend to hate split shot with a passion. Split shot can be a pain to cast, and is just another object to injure a rod, get snagged up or tangled, can occasionally slide or come off, etc. Its just easier to fish without needing it.

 

[audax]

A mistake commonly made by new tyers is failing to use sufficient tension on the tying thread; sometimes, this amount approaches the thread's breaking strength. While this may not be the cause of your problem, keeping this in mind will help you create durable flies. If you haven't already done so, secure your tying thread to a hook and break it off repeatedly until you gain a feel for that maximum tension.

I wrap lead in tight, adjacent turns on the bare shank, then form a tapered "stop" at either end of the underbody before further securing the underbody with forward and rearward wraps of tying thread. Depending on the fly, I may add a small drop of cement to the underbody before covering with thread.

With weighted beadheads, the bead replaces the front "stop," but the process is otherwise the same.

I can't say I have an issue with bodies rotating, whether it's a weighted stonefly nymph or the spun hair body of a Goddard Caddis. If it takes anything less than a fair amount of force to make a fly rotate at all, I know I didn't tie that fly well.

 

[wthorpe]

These comments are helpful. Thank you. Also, I guess I might have posted this in the wrong forum. If someone wants to move it that would be great.

 

[jcw355]

Using weighted and unweighted flies is personal preference. I do both just depends. I anchor my lead like mentioned above.

 

[alexs]

I almost learned to tie flies about 10 years ago, but gave it up. Now, I am back at it. I have many questions. Here are some of the more pressing ones at the moment:
1. I am having problems with the body turning on the hook shank, I think only when I try to tie on lead or lead substitute. I have made up to ten turns of fine lead or substitute wire and really focused on pushing the tied lead (or sub) into the back of a bead. Is there a trick to securing the weighting that I might be missing?
2. When flies are sold commercially, especially bead-headed nymphs and small streamers, are they ever / typically sold with weight wrapped underneath?
3. What combos of beaded; brass, copper, tungsten; wrapped weight on fly underbody; both beaded and weighted; and neither beaded nor weighted do folks typically tie? Would you typically use less weight for say a dropper behind a hopper or other dry and more wt for deeper nymphing? If you use a variety of these combos how do you keep straight which is which in a fly box? What is the advantage/disadvantage to weighting the fly itself as opposed to using weight on the leader?

1. Wind the lead wire on the hook shank, pull the lead to the bend of the hook, brush a bit of head cement or superglue on the hook shank, than push the lead against the bead. Start your thread behind the lead wraps build a cone and wrap your lead with the thread.
2. Typically no, to my best knowledge.
3. Depends what you need for the water you are fishing. I try to stay away from having different lead weighting on the same size fly.I prefer to have different size beads (always tungsten)and the same amount of lead so I can visually identify/estimate the weight of e fly. If I need a heavier fly to get down to the bottom, I'll just pick one with a larger bead. I will fish the smallest fly that takes my rig down to where the fish are holding/feeding. There are a few exceptions with flies that imitate bugs that are naturally large in size (stone flies, for example).

Hope it helps.

Cheers,
Alex

 

[wthorpe]

Many thanks again for the quick replies. I took the suggestions back to the bench and I think my problem is solved!

I am still curious if other folks have thoughts on whether to tie with or w/o lead, with or w/o beads, brass vs. tungsten, etc.

 

[bigjim5589]

Excellent replies!

As already said, the problem of turning materials in the body is due to a lack of a solid base or securing the lead wire.

I weight a lot of the flies I use, and use both methods mentioned. Doesn't matter which you use, as long as the lead/weight wire is secured. I also give the thread & lead wire a coat of head cement before proceeding. This helps with securing the lead & reduces oxidation of the lead. If you use non-lead this isn't an issue, but it still doesn't hurt for securing purposes. Super glue has also been mentioned, but I just use the head cement (Sally Hansen's Hard As Nails) rather than use 2 different adhesives/coatings. That's a personal choice.

I never push wire weight against a bead head. I leave a gap, but I also often use a heavier wire size. (.020 or .025) The gap provides room for tying in collars & keeps the profile a little slimmer. Plus, this is something I usually only do with very large flies. Anything smaller than an 8, the bead, cone, etc. is the only weight I add, but like someone already mentioned, I'll use all the various types available. For example, if I'm tying a size 12 nymph & a brass bead is proving to be too light, next batch will go with tungsten beads of the same size as the brass I was using. That solves the weighting problem about 99.9% of the time. Of course if that's still not working, the bead size will increase with the next batch of flies.

To your question of weight options, there are many & frankly it's not often necessary to get too complicated with weighting a fly. Just keep in mind that
the basic options are glass beads, brass beads or cones, the various barbell options (lead, brass, tungsten or bead chain) and tungsten beads or cones, plus the lead or non-lead wires. There are some lead bead/cones too, but they're usually going to be too large for many trout flies, and there's certainly the option of molded lead on a jig hook. It's a choice what you use, and you may simply like one better than the other, or you may wish to use all for different purposes, which is what I generally do. But, I also tie more bass & salt flies than I do trout flies.

I just poured some small leaded hooks, size 6 which I'll use for panfish. Not sure as yet how well they'll work with a fly rod, but I use other tackle too. I also pour jig heads down to 1/100 oz., which do work well for flies.



I've tried all kinds of methods for "marking" my flies for the weight used. Have yet to come up with a 100% reliable method, primarily because once on the water I forget what I did. However, best way has been keep the flies in separate boxes, so for example I may carry 2 fly boxes. One will have the basic flies I usually carry , while the other will be only recently tied, heavily weighted in some of the same patterns or new patterns & I mark the fly box to indicate which is which. Plus, the heavily weighted box is not usually going to have but a few dozen flies in them, maybe 3 patterns so that also narrows the choices. Fortunately, the majority of fishing I've done has been in waters shallow enough & with moderate currents that extremely heavy flies are not needed most of the time.

I've found that because of the shallow, moderate flow waters I've fished most, a weighted fly excludes the need for additional weights to be added to the leader, most of the time. Much of this is done with a floating line too. So, the advantage is it's keeps things much more simple. Where I've needed heavy flies with sinking leaders or lines has been in deep water (Chesapeake Bay & tribs) or strong current ( tidal currents usually) situations while targeting Striped Bass, and rarely for anything else. Even there most of the areas were shallow enough that the floating line with weighted flies got the job done. It all really depends on the type of waters you fish most & how you can best deal with the conditions. If you find conditions that require heavy weighted flies or sinking lines/leaders, or added weight, then you learn to adjust to those conditions. :thumbsup:

 

[fishmandoug]

Everyone else has covered the first two questions very well.

I generally tie trout nymphs with tungsten, brass, and unweighted. A few of each in the same pattern is nice in a box to be able to adjust for flow and depth. I find that for me hares ears and pheasant tails are all I really need. All the other patterns I carry are just for fun.

I like a few turns of lead free wire behind the bead if I'm putting it against the eye, but have recently been experimenting with putting beads in the thorax and covering with dubbing. In this case I use thread in front and behind to lock the bead in place. I only wrap lead free around the shank for steamers.

 

[fredaevans]

Back in the day when I tied a lot I used three different coloured threads to indicate no weight, lightly weighted and a 'feather brick.'

 

[webrx]

just a thought, don't be afraid to just use copper wire as a wrap on your hook as well. Lead is heavier obviously, but you can also use wire to add weight, just wrap it on the hook like a thread base, and then cover it with thread.

I actually use an old bobbin with a spool of copper wire on it to make this easier when I want to add a little weight.

d

 

[ia_trouter]

Many thanks again for the quick replies. I took the suggestions back to the bench and I think my problem is solved!

I am still curious if other folks have thoughts on whether to tie with or w/o lead, with or w/o beads, brass vs. tungsten, etc.

One of those things you have to learn with time, on YOUR water. A fly that will quickly sink in a slow pool is damn near a dry fly 50 feet down stream. (An exaggeration of course), but the difference is quite extreme with varying current. You can literally need ten times the weight. Try some weight variations as you tie so you don't end up with a dozen identical flies that are just not close enough to right to work well. I don't have a lot of heavily weighted flies like a tungsten conehead, but I always make sure there are a few in the box for the occasion when my preferred techniques come up short.

 

[fredaevans]

Great thread going on here.

Back in the day when I tied on a regular basis I'd change the colour of the thread to indicate the flies weight (or lack there of). Same box but black was unweighted, brown a light weight, red was heavy.

Only thing from that point on was the size of the fly, usually three of the above covering the different 'weights.' To secure the lead wire/tape, as noted above, was a thread base, slop on some head cement then the wire/tape. No issue(s) tieing from that point on, nothing was going to move.

fae

 

[346xp]

I tie a lot of lead wire tungsten bead flies, 95% as I'm a nympher. I wrap lead wire on the hook directly behind the bead, then push it up tight and start body wraps right behind it. Then over wrap it allowing thread to co with the lead first then back across it second to lock it in.

I don't anchor the lead at all, and aside from eggs or mop flies have great durability. This type of heavy fly is only really needed for tight lining swift water, droppers really require no extra weight as a 3.5 mm tungsten bead and 4-14 wraps of medium wire will sink even a #6 foam hopper in current.

Size 16-12 2-3 mm tungsten beads and 3-6 wraps of lead if any will sink very quickly on simple nymph bodies, but depending on water depth and current aren't always needed. Experience is based in WNC on a mix of water, but even stocked fish on heavily pressured water preferred small easy to see droppers to streamer jigs or mops.
Small skinny water fish really love a red or black WD40 or zebra midge dropped mid current or rolled along the bottom. Some very spooky wild water I fished last weekend, the mature brookies wanted a nymph right on there nose and suspended mid current. We didn't try emergers on them, but I suspect a very small emerger would have been the ticket as a dropper.

 

[wolfglen]

I almost learned to tie flies about 10 years ago, but gave it up. Now, I am back at it. I have many questions. Here are some of the more pressing ones at the moment:
1. I am having problems with the body turning on the hook shank, I think only when I try to tie on lead or lead substitute. I have made up to ten turns of fine lead or substitute wire and really focused on pushing the tied lead (or sub) into the back of a bead. Is there a trick to securing the weighting that I might be missing?
2. When flies are sold commercially, especially bead-headed nymphs and small streamers, are they ever / typically sold with weight wrapped underneath?
3. What combos of beaded; brass, copper, tungsten; wrapped weight on fly underbody; both beaded and weighted; and neither beaded nor weighted do folks typically tie? Would you typically use less weight for say a dropper behind a hopper or other dry and more wt for deeper nymphing? If you use a variety of these combos how do you keep straight which is which in a fly box? What is the advantage/disadvantage to weighting the fly itself as opposed to using weight on the leader?

If you're tying a lot of flies, I'd suggest weighting a number of the ahead of time. Get some SLOW set epoxy resin (I use some of those table top finishes like envirotex. Mix some up and put it in small coffee creamer cups, half full and store them in the freezer. They won't kick off while frozen and take one out when you're ready to tie. put a bead of it on the hook, wind thread on it, then another bead on it and wrap the lead wire. Set it aside and do the rest of them. they will NOT turn on the hook if you do that.

Note that you should coat the lead with lacquer or enamel (or more of the epoxy so that moisture doesn't cause it to oxidize and ruin the fly.). Now the beauty of the slow set epoxy is that you can prepare a bunch of them first thing in the morning and they will get tacky,, then you can tie the rest of the fly and the thread will "bite" in the finish and everything is bonded together. It also makes an excellent head finish and when you get through tying, you can put the container back in the freezer and it will arrest the setting process until you take it out again.

 

[corn fed fins]

I almost learned to tie flies about 10 years ago, but gave it up. Now, I am back at it. I have many questions. Here are some of the more pressing ones at the moment:
1. I am having problems with the body turning on the hook shank, I think only when I try to tie on lead or lead substitute. I have made up to ten turns of fine lead or substitute wire and really focused on pushing the tied lead (or sub) into the back of a bead. Is there a trick to securing the weighting that I might be missing?
2. When flies are sold commercially, especially bead-headed nymphs and small streamers, are they ever / typically sold with weight wrapped underneath?
3. What combos of beaded; brass, copper, tungsten; wrapped weight on fly underbody; both beaded and weighted; and neither beaded nor weighted do folks typically tie? Would you typically use less weight for say a dropper behind a hopper or other dry and more wt for deeper nymphing? If you use a variety of these combos how do you keep straight which is which in a fly box? What is the advantage/disadvantage to weighting the fly itself as opposed to using weight on the leader?

1) Addressed in multiples

2) Depends on the fly. I noticed decades ago some of the CHEAP flies where actually a PLASTIC gold/silver beads(nymphs). You can buy weighted flies/streamers but buy from a reputable source.

3) All preference in combinations and what you are trying to achieve with the flies appearance and presentation.

*If I run a dropper off a dry it's usually not weighted or with the tiniest split just to get the dropper subsurface if needed. A dry fly will not float a lot of weight as it's design to use water tension to stay afloat. So ask yourself, am I nymphing or am I throwing a surface fly?

*Keep weighted flies in a separate box/compartment. This requires putting them back in the right box/compartment! Or use a "hot spot" on the fly to designate it as weighted.

*IMO. The only flies I tie weighted are stones and some glass bead emergers (#18-#22) . Other than that I use split. I want as much control over my nymphs as I can get. Nothing worse than being to heavy for the riffles and having to swap flies instead of just adjusting splits. So the only advantage I have come across is versatility in unweighted flies. As stated earlier, lots of split can be a problem in "casting" but I do not cast nymphs. I think lobbing or flipping would be better terms. Dry casting a two, three fly rig with split and indicator is asking for a problem, as a good loop can be difficult to maintain. More often than not, wind knots in heavy nymph rigs end up being river-side re-rigs.