How do I know if I am doing this right??

[busbus]

I just read the thread entitled "Frustrated... thinking about giving up fly fishing" and I have a similar question, except I am not frustrated...yet.

I have just started to fly fish. And when I say just started, I mean I have gone out on the water with my fly rod twice. That's it. I had been practicing in my yard and reading books and watching YouTube videos but I chickened out every time I had the opportunity to try to fly fish.

I finally had an older guy talk me into going with him and he taught me how to roll cast on a bank at the side of a small lake a couple weeks ago. I was pleasantly surprised because I was able to make it work just fine within the first half dozen casts. I think he was more pleased than me because he was the one who showed me how to do it, which is okay, too.

He made me put on some old waders he happened to have and more or less shoved me into a stream that is below the lake. It took a little while to figure out how to walk in the things as the boots were at least a size too big and the waders came up to my chin, but it was the greatest experience I ever had fishing in my life. I even caught a miniature bass! Almost needed a magnifying glass to see it but it was there.

When I dropped him off at his house, I told him it was the best day fishing I ever had and he was extremely pleased. I think I was as happy seeing him all puffed up as I was about fly fishing.

I immediately bought a pair of waders and a pair of boots. Last Friday, I ventured out on my own. I actually caught two trout. Both were big enough to keep but they were about 35% as big as others I was seeing in the waters. Of course, I threw them back, but I was drooling for the big 'uns (who all totally ignored my wet fly).

Finally, here is my question (or series of questions):

1. It seemed to me I was casting alright. There was not much room with trees and bushes all around, so I roll casted. I think that is all I even really know how to do. When DO you use something other than a shorter cast? I saw Brewski opine that all he can cast was 30-feet. I don't think I ever made 30-feet. Maybe I did but when do you have to?

2. I keep hearing about having your line "roll" but how do I know mine is? Or is that only for dry flies? Or am I totally stupid and should look for another hobby?

3. How do I know if I cast my fly well? Or poorly?

4. How do I retrieve a fly properly?

5. Is it best to cast upstream and let the fly float downstream, then pull it in? Or is it better to cast downstream? (I know: both or either--but WHEN do I do one or the other or go across stream?????)

6. Fish usually sit looking upstream, right? Does that mean you should walk upstream and approach them from behind? I am afraid to walk downstream because I think they will see me and then all is lost.


Sorry for all the questions. There are more where they came from! That said, the two times I was out, I had a great time just being there. Being alone and listening to everything and nothing. Seeing a blue heron and a few kingfishers and some hawks circling overhead. Watch squirrels running around. And, one time, watching two trout that seemed like they were playing a game of tag. I enjoyed the solitude as well as the company I ran into. And I liked the motion of casting and retrieving--even though I know I am probably doing both wrong. I think I liked all that even more than catching those two trout.

--Ray

 

[comeonavs]

I will let others chime in, don't feel alone I was right where you are at 5 years ago. I had no clue what was in my fly box, what a hatch was, what rod/line I needed. All I knew was I had a rod reel combo and knew where some water was.

5 years later everyone I know who wants to learn wants me to take them fly fishing to show them how. And no I am not that good.

I will address one topic you have asked about and leave the rest to every one else. Roll casting vs a traditional dry fly full stroke cast. I find on smaller streams to even midsize rivers ( 10' wide to 50' feet wide) . Rarely do I make a full cast unless I am gauging distance to a new run or see a fish rise at distance and I try to target "that fish", or am fishing 20+ feet of floating line with room for a backcast. 90% of the time I have less that 15 feet of floating line out the tip of my rod. I do what I call flipcast (dont know the real term) With such little line out there is no real need to roll cast nor do a full stroke cast. I simply elevate my rod tip and "flip" the line back to where I want my fly to land. If I get 20' or more line out in a tight are I will do more of a roll cast which is essentially the same motion. Raise the rod tip, then make a more full stroked forward motion cast. This will get the line to turn over.


Roll casting / flip casting any way you can get the line to where you need it to be is fine depending on your surroundings / skill .


At the end of the day if you caught 2 fish on that "little green looking fly" that you aren't even sure what it is called. But you went home with a smile on your face.....you are doing it right.

 

[crruns]

...the two times I was out, I had a great time just being there. Being alone and listening to everything and nothing. Seeing a blue heron and a few kingfishers and some hawks circling overhead. Watch squirrels running around. And, one time, watching two trout that seemed like they were playing a game of tag. I enjoyed the solitude as well as the company I ran into. And I liked the motion of casting and retrieving--even though I know I am probably doing both wrong. I think I liked all that even more than catching those two trout.

I'm with you- the people I've met on the few outings I've had have been fantastic, and I'm a big fan of just getting outside away from people, traffic, and everything, and listening to nature. Catching a fish is pretty good, too.

I think I'd keep hanging out with that older guy, and see how much more he's willing to teach you! There is no replacement for a live mentor that can show you stuff.

 

[webrx]

if you are having fun, enjoying your time on the water, getting your line wet and occasionally in the right place, and every now and then catching a fish or two I think your doing it right. If you hate every minute your on the water, then maybe not ;0

I roll cast or waterload my cast 90% of the time on the river, the other 10 percent I am fishing dries and generally position myself so I can cast quarter upstream and try to maintain a drift.

No amount of youtube or reading will replace time spent on the water with someone willing to teach you. Stick with the old guy!

Dave

 

[Guest1]

Could not have said that better Webrx. Most of your questions busbus, have many answers. Like how do I retrieve the fly? It depends. Some you may want to dead drift, or swing, or twitch or steady retrieve. I'd stick with the old guy. He could probably use the fishing partner and you can learn a lot from a guy like that.

 

[bear 007]

To me fly fishing is all about the challenge, I look at it as sort of a puzzle. I've been doing it for 30 years now and I still get rejected by big fish, heck I've had 6" brookies be extremely selective on the trico hatch, but that's what keeps me coming back. I really believe that if I were to catch fish one after another on anything I put in front of them, day after day, I would have lost interest long ago. I do like being out side wading in a quiet little stream, but for me its about the challenge from day to day, just when you think you've got it all figured out, it changes. Casting will come with a little practice, its all the rest of it that will take time.

 

[bugslinger]

bus bus, we all started right where you are and most of us didn't have cell phones much less the internet and it's wealth of knowledge. You asked great questions ,the ones we all asked but unless we had someone to answer them we learned the hard way.. trail and error. Dry flys are probably the best way to catch fish,any fish if the fish are feeding on the top, and if their are insect landing on the water. If you fish upstream you have a better chance the fish wont see you but there are times you want to fish down stream to skate the fly across the water to intice the ones with lock jaw. Nymphing is the prefered method when the weather cools and hatches or terestrials aren't there for the fish to feed on. Don't forget streames and wet flys, which you want to fish down stream, and strip on the swing. Most of it is common sense, watch what the fish are doing and give them the fly in the depth they are at,use patterns your local fly shop says will catch fish and don't be afraid to experiment. I'm from Pittsburg so I gotta ask,what creek did you fish?

 

[busbus]

bugslinger, I fished Montour Run, right along the part of Montour Trail that runs along Beaver Grade Road in Robinson Township.

I know I just need to keep doing this and there is no better way to learn than to simply do. I may give Jules (the old guy) a call. He claims he has only been fly fishing for eight years but he is eons better than me. Heck, he fished the same stretch of creek I fished last week a couple days earlier and caught seven or eight fish in a couple hours. I would have to say he is better than me.

One thing I have noticed is that it is just plain fun to simply cast (even though I know I stink). I can get my line to more-or-less go where I want it to go but it does seem to always snake a little bit. Practice will help but, in the words of Henry Mancini, "[only] perfect practice makes perfect."

But maybe I worry too much. Maybe it isn't about the style. Maybe it isn't about the technique. Maybe it isn't even really about catching fish. Maybe it is all about having a good time. I have caught [small] fish already and it was a thrill. But the fact that I caught a fish on a fly I tied is neater than catching a fish.

The guys at the local Orvis shop said to stick with wet flies for the fall, so that is what I am doing. I still don't understand if I should walk upstream, cast upstream, and let the wet fly drift downstream or some other way. I am sure that the fish that I saw the other day saw me and that is why they ignored my offering.

Agggh. :yikes:

I will just walk upstream next time! Try it from all angles!

 

[turbineblade]

I'm fairly new as well, and was basically in the same spot you are about...oh, maybe 4 months ago. I'm not very good still, but I can do a variety of casts up to about 50-60 feet with *decent accuracy...which is good enough for most of the fishing I need to do. Sometimes I still do stupid things and mess up....hopefully that gets better with time.

The roll cast is great, but I'd also just get out in the open somewhere and at least give the overhead cast a shot. Just put some line out in front of you....doesn't take much just to practice false-casts. Lower the rod out in front of you, pull out any slack with your line hand, and do the slow acceleration to a quick stop over your shoulder. You can even just let the line fall to the ground behind you, just focus on slowly accelerating to a quick stop when the rod is roughly at the famous "2:00" position. Then just turn around and face the line and do it again until you're good with it.

Then instead of letting it fall behind you, start another slow acceleration to a quick stop for the forward cast and let it fall.

Then add both together and you'll be false-casting! Practice this with a small amount of line and try to focus on trying to hit the rod with the fly line on the forward cast because it tends to make your loops tighter. That's how I was taught anyway.

Now that I bass fish I use some completely different casts, but the roll cast and simple overhead are good to start with.

Later on you can focus on false casting with more fly line out, which loads the rod better. Once you get more fly line out you can work with hauling and shooting line....but I wouldn't mess with those until you get the overhead down pretty well.

My double haul isn't too great because I tend to overpower the rod....but I'm still practicing. I don't think I'll ever be "great" at it, hopefully just good enough to not embarrass myself and catch some fish

---------- Post added at 06:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:11 AM ----------

Oh, and for wet flies -- check out that thread in the ...I think warm water section about "how to fish wet flies" . It will tell you all you need to know.

Mostly I just cast them straight across in front of me, do a quick upstream mend (so the fly line doesn't immediately start "pulling" the fly (drag) and so the fly can start to sink. Once it moves a little further downstream I usually just "point" at the fly and follow it with my rod until it starts to swing through the current back toward where I'm standing. Then I usually lob-cast it back upstream again.

Then move downstream a few steps and do it again . Swinging a wet fly is easy to me....great beginner fly fishng technique.

I also use this "straight to the point" (read the link below under that heading) on one of my streams because it works well for that particular water.....it's so simple a child would probably come up with it You stand there, drop the fly in the water, and literally just "feed" it downstream until it reaches the fish, or a fishy looking spot. It works quite well but looks kind of primitive. Who cares though? It puts the fly on the fish! In my cast I use it to get a fly under some heavy debris and I wouldn't want to cast into with my poor casting skills.

Beyond the Swing | MidCurrent

There are some other techniques in that article too.

That said, don't listen to anything I say because I only have about 3 months on you most likely, lol.

Oh! and swinging wet flies is typically associated with stuff like trout/steelhead using actual, traditional "wet flies" (partridge and orange, cow dung, etc.) but I often use it with woolly buggers and smaller clouser minnows for bass and bluegill. I think it's pretty versatile. For "easy" you might also look into nymphing using a strike-indicator (bobber). A lot of fly fishing guides have their clients use this, especially for beginners since it gives you a good drift without much skill required. That said, I am trying to actually learn to nymph without the indicator as well as with it so I don't cripple myself

Hope this helps!

 

[rockriver]

I'd be making some free time to fish with the older guy. He probably has a wealth of knowledge to pass on to someone interested.

 

[codypom]

I am right there with you! The thing I find most frustrating is that there are almost NO flyfishermen in my area, so I have nobody to talk to. You can watch all the videos you want, but they are not interactive. Someone gave me the advice to take a few lessons. I tried that, but guess what? There aren't any teachers around. My wife did find a small guide service a few hours away and gave me a day trip for a father's day gift. It was well worth the money to spend the day picking the brain of someone who really knows how to do it.

We were fishing small streams and each hole presented a different casting challenge. The guide at one point apologized for fishing too much because it was supposed to be my trip. I said "No, that's perfect!" I wanted to see how he approached the situation, then I was able to replicate what he did. At one point he said to me: "Now you're starting to look like a fly fisherman."

I was all caught up in the "proper" way to fly fish and I would ask: "What is it that you are doing now?" He'd say: "I don't know if it even has a name, the point is that it gets the fly where it needs to be."

He helped me fix some major flaws in my casts, which I continue to work on today.

My advice is just keep working at it and you will get there. I teach guitar lessons and I am always telling my students: The more you do it, the better you will be. So get out there and fish!

 

[dillon]

Buy that nice man that took you fishing a beer or cup of coffee. Go to a local fly club meeting, hang out at fly shops, and listen. Go to the river and observe other anglers and the environment. have fun...

 

[Rip Tide]

. Practice will help but, in the words of Henry Mancini, "[only] perfect practice makes perfect."

I think you'll find that in fly fishing your most memorable lessons are learned when you do it wrong and then see your mistake

 

[mcnerney]

The others have given good advice, I'd also recommend that you goggle Orvis Podcasts. Tom Rosenbauer does an excellent job of discussing fly fishing, you will learn a lot of great information. Also try to find a local fly fishing club in your area or maybe a Trout Unlimited Chapter or Fly Fishing Federation Chapter you could join and meet other fly fishermen, these clubs are a great resource for beginners. Also use the search function on this forum, you will be amazed at the wealth of information you find, but don't hesitate to ask questions.

Larry

 

[busbus]

I met that old(er) guy at a fly tying class at a local church. They had a ten-week course for the past twp years in the winter. I was always intrigued by fly tying and took the plunge. Most of the guys who went both years were the same, but not all of them. Two of the people that were there for both were me and Jules.

Last year, the instructor, who is an art teacher, came in with a homemade tying bench. It was sweet. One of the guys made one and came in with it the next week. He just slapped it together and it sort of looked horrible but, darn it, he was organized.

I like to woodwork and I said I was going to make one, but it was going to look good. I wasn't going to make it out of oak like the instructor and I thought I could tweak his design and make it better. Two of the others, one being Jules, said they would like one. It is just as easy to make three cuts on the table saw as one once it is set up, so I made three.

It took me a while because I got a health scare in the middle and needed to hold off for over a month, by which time, the class was long over. It took me until August to finish them. I did make a bunch of tweaks and kept adding to them. Jules wanted to pay for his bench but I told him if he simply taught me how to roll cast, that would be payment enough, since I never cast a fly rod in my life.

He did more than that and I was very appreciative. I am a little sheepish to call him and ask him to go fishing. I don't know why, but I am. I am sure he would love to go though. There are not necessarily tons of fly fishers around here and I have the feeling he goes out alone much of the time and, possibly, doesn't like to always be alone.

That said, you guys have convinced me and I will give him a call to go out soon. The other guy I made a box for invited me to go to Erie to do some steelhead fishing. I would like to take him up on that but I only have a 5wt rod and reel. He did say he had an extra rod and reel but I feel bad using it. Plus., I don't have all the cold weather equipment. But, mostly, I feel awkward being on a stream with TONS of guys and lines all over the place and, well, chaos. I hear those guys are impatient up there and if you "screw up" and do something stupid like tangle your line with another guy, it is not always pleasant. I want to get sort of better before I do that. Of course, the good thing is that you don't always need to cast but, rather, you just drop your line into the water, I guess, since it can be so crowded at times.

 

[silver creek]

Busbus,

Most of use old timers would kill to teach someone as enthusiastic as you. As was said before, you asked good questions and that alone shows me that you are giving fly fishing serious consideration.

There are few definitive answers to your open ended questions. Nearly everything is situation dependent from what flies you use, how to approach the fish, and what cast to use.

Take dry fly fishing for example. A simple question might be do I fish upstream or downstream. 99% of fishers would tell you to approach from downstream and cast up and a bit across so as to keep the leader and line from falling over the fish. The hook set is easier because the set pulls the hook into the fish rather than away from the fish.

However, for the most difficult dry fishing like the Harriman Ranch on the Henry's Fork or Silver Creek in Idaho, I cast down and across or directly downstream to the surface feeders. The downstream cast is the only way to reliably get the fly absolutely drag free into the tiny feeding window at the time the fish is ready to take another insect. Every other consideration is trumped by the need for the fly to enter the window before the leader and on time with the feeding rhythm of the fish.

The downstream parachute cast is the solution to this problem.

Position yourself up and across from the feeding fish. Then make a parachute cast down and across the feeding lane. The land upstream of the fish. Skate the fly into the proper feeding lane, and then drop the rod tip to "feed" the fly to the fish in rhythm with his rise. Trying to remove all drag with a slack line, being highly accurate, and timing the fly for a rhythmical feeder is nearly impossible when casting from below the fish.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIqvVH5hpDU]How to Fly Fish: The Parachute and Pile Casts - YouTube[/ame]

This single scenario is just one of the hundreds or possibly thousands of possible combinations of flies, approaches, casts, etc, for each fishing environment. I know from experience what I would do that I think is my best option but is it yours? Only you will know if you can make the cast that is needed and the fly manipulation and mends after the cast.

That is the challenge of fly fishing. And that is why I posted on another thread that the thread originator should not be satisfied with a 40 foot cast as their maximum. I know that if they go to Madison River, they will be ill prepared for the basic skills that fishery requires.

My advice is to not get frustrated. Never stop asking questions. The best question to ask of any experienced fly fisher is "Why?" Why did you rig up that way; Why did you choose that fly; Why did you choose that position to cast from; Why did you think there was a fish there; Why do I need a longer leader; Why? Why? Why?

Good luck to you. I hope you find fly fishing the continual challenge that I have.

 

[ditz]

I won't attempt to instruct you on how to fish since I am not all that good myself. I ran onto a flycasting site on the net called sexy loops. I learned more off of that site in a few hours than I did for many years of selflearning. I don't know if it is still available but do a little search. It should be well worth it. I learned to double haul from thier videos which I never seemed to be able to pick up out of a book. I lived in east central Indiana which was a flyfishing desert when I started. Flies were near impossible to find to buy so I had to learn to do that as well. The internet is a wonderful resourse for learning to tie as well. Sure wished it had been available back in the day.

have fun and good luck....Flyfishing is a wonderful life long adventure.

 

[busbus]

Thanks, ditz.

That web site is still there. I have looked at it a lot. My biggest problem is that I have a bad habit to read and watch too many videos and such. I sort of lose the nerve to go out and DO the thing I am studying all the time. I have not had the time in the past couple days to call Jules, the old guy, to see if he would like to go fishing sometime but that advice is the best advice I have gotten thus far. Just the fact that I had somebody there who said, "Yes" or "No!" or "I will show you a hole over here..." was more valuable than anything.

Additional story: There are a number of Indian programmers where I work. I have been dropping flies that I have been learning how to tie on their desks for the last couple years and they love getting things. They say it is cultural. They have these things sticking in the cloth walls of there cubes all over the place.

Anyways, there is one guy who is a little more interested than the others. I was talking to him this past Monday and he said he has been waiting for me or Ric (a guy I fish with who also works here) to take him fishing. He said he has fished in the past but the only thing he knows is to tie a piece of string to a stick and attach a hook of some kind and "dunk" a worm. After some kidding around, we realized he was serious. So I asked him if he would like to go out sometime soon, since his H1-B is almost up. He picked yesterday. Ric couldn't go, so it was me and Ravi.

Now, I had hoped Ric would go because he has never cast a fly rod before and wants to learn how. Ravi, on the other hand, wanted to try both spin casting and fly casting. So I took him to a smallish stream right by where we work yesterday. Sort of funny a guy who knows nothing about fly fishing is "teaching" somebody else. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

Well, I brought my breathable waders and boots, too, because Ravi did not believe that you could walk in the walker and stay perfectly dry. It was an adventure, but we finally got the waders and boots on him. We took both rods down to the stream and he wanted me to show him how to spin cast first. The only thing I had was an old 1/2-oz Rapala, so I tied it on and showed him. he was amazed how far it went and I told him that it wasn't far at all because there was sort of little room to cast it. Too many trees and bushes and a narrow stream. He wanted to see it go farther, so I lobbed one an he was thrilled. He tried casting a few times. It was rough as he was trying to THROW it. He couldn't understand how to reel it in and the lure looked like a dead fish being pulled across the bottom. I told him to cast to his right, LIGHTLY. Well, now there is a Rapala lure about 30 feet in a tree...

Onto fly casting.

After the third or fourth try, he "got" it. It was only that roll cast that I have been using but it was rolling nicely. I was impressed. He was excited. He waded deeper and deeper into the stream and was having a heck of a time. He finally came out and asked where all the fish were. Well, I knew where he could at least see a few, a couple hundred yards away, so we went there. And there were fish, around four or five browns swimming around. He was like a little kid almost jumping up-and-down screaming, "Fish!! there's a real, live fish!!" He tried to cast to them and one even sort of looked like he was thinking about taking the fly but, well, Ravi was making too much noise and the fish drifted away.

I told him to go upstream a ways where there was a hard bend in the stream and a lot of debris was stuck. I know there are fish there, too. So, up he wandered, very slowly. He got too far away to talk and he was flipping his fly all around. He kept hitting the rod into trees and rocks and stuff (and I was CRINGING) but he was so full of joy that there was no way I could get angry.

About 20 minutes later, he finally came back. It was starting to get dark by that time. He said his wife would be disappointed because she likes fish and has never tasted "American" fish. I brought him to the nearest grocery store and he bought a couple trout fillets. When I dropped him off, he was still excited and said he was going to buy a fly setup before he left and said that was the most fun he ever had in America and he has been here for four years. It was the first time he was completely relaxed and said he will now fish for the rest of his life.

So, even though he lost a lure, broke the elastic string on my waders, and scratched my rod and reel all up, it was well worth it.


Sorry for the long winded story. Just thought I should share.

 

[mylobass]

I know exactly what you mean when you say you lose your nerve and dont go. Ive done the very same thing. I still let wind stop me from going out. Watching too many instructional dvd's, you tube videos and books made me more confused than they helped me. Getting help from a friend really only confirmed to me that he had bad form and made lots of mistakes he denies doing. But his way works for him. I decided to stick with one instructor on video since there are no 'live' ones within my price range where I live. Tarpon guides think too highly of themselves! Perhaps you could find one in your area.

 

[jaybo41]

Great posts, very nice write-ups and solid questions. I haven't fished Montour but I am familiar with the stream. For a stream that size and for those stocked trout, a roll cast is probably all you need in reality. I have fished plenty of streams around the Pittsburgh area similar in size and for years, that's all I ever did. Even on larger streams a roll cast worked.

Since then I have taken up fishing spring creeks for wild fish. Completely different experience and this is where I discovered that I really needed to learn to cast. A roll cast is nice to have in your back pocket and can still be used in certain situations but really casting the fly rod became more important.

Since you are already going to Montour you are right in the vicinity of an excellent fly shop, one that I highly recommend. Go to International Angler and get yourself a casting lesson. I took one this year after 10 or so years of doing this on my own. I can't tell you how that one lesson has changed my game. I intend on going back for more next year.

Learning from folks as you did is also an excellent way to get yourself up to speed. Kudos to Jules for taking time to teach you a few things. I have met several old timers on the water who were probably just as happy to talk with me about fly fishing and exchange a fly or two as they were to be out fishing. So much can be learned from those who have been doing this much longer than we have.

Lastly, since I am in your general area I'd be happy to get you out sometime and give you a brain dump if you're willing to go somewhere other than Montour. I am far from an expert, but I'd be willing to help as much as I can. Fly fishing, I've learned, is a journey. Every time you do it, try and learn something new or improve on something. Then there's the tying, the photography. So many wonderful aspects of this sport.