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Thread: Never fished/w a Guide

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Never fished/w a Guide

    What does a guide cost on one of the more popular rivers in the west? Does it matter on price if itís a wading or rowing trip?

    What does the guide supply? Gear, lunch, refreshments....?

    Maybe there should be a thread on how to pick a guide, what to expect, what questions to ask, things to avoid, etc.

    Maybe there is already that thread. I havenít searched.

    But for someone like me whoís never hired a guide I wouldnít know where to begin other than ask a friend whoís used a guide. Maybe there are others that are more or less clueless about how to find the right guide for them.

    I do know one acquaintance/friend that hired a guide here locally for redfish, speckled trout, etc. He went out over several trips to learn where, how, and the why of the nearby water. Friend said it greatly shortened the learning curve. Set him back $3,000-4,000. It was like tuition, pay now for the payoff later.

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  3. #62

    Default Re: Never fished/w a Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by corn fed fins View Post
    Interesting point silver. I think learning how to cast takes more than learning how to fish. I fish with a bunch of different guys in our club. Some can cast while others......just get their lines in the water. One thing is they all catch fish, some more than others. I wouldn't put a new guy with the rod flailers to learn how to cast but I would put one with them to learn how to fish. Does that make sense? Some know where they need to put the fly, just have trouble doing it.

    IMO-
    It all boils down to why someone is hiring a guide. Not every guide can cast. I've witnessed this first hand. Not every guide knows aquatic entomology. San Juan worm hatch? I hope: they can row a boat; knows what's hot; knows the lies; tie a knot; untangle a tangle, net a fish; use a camera, cook clean...oops. What is the certification for being a guide? All that is required here is...nothing, unless running a boat. There are certified instructors; FFI certification for example. It doesn't mean they can "teach", only cast.

    Besides, if you want to learn to fish why pay money? There are a ton of clubs that will welcome a new angler and there are a ton of guys that will go fishing with them. Just as long as they have their own gear and can CAST. Just joking. These are good places for any beginner and most are filled with freckled wrinkles that have been doing this for +40 years. I'll be one one day, minus the freckles and wrinkles of course.
    If the client gets what he wants out of the guide, that is great.

    I will agree that there are "good" guides and "not so good" guides and even "bad" guides. There are also "good" clients and "not so good" clients and even "bad" clients.

    A bad experience is not a reason to discount guides.

    Secondly, I will agree that clubs are a good place to find some fly fishing mentors. In fact I have suggested often to a newbies. But again this is not an argument against guides at all. It is simply another option and some newbies may not have that option.

    Here's the thing about these discussions. Learning how to fly fish can take many tracks. Some people are self starters and learn on their own either because they cannot afford lessons, have no mentors, or their location offers no other option. Others can afford lessons and guides. Others have friends and mentors.

    Some live close to good fishing, others have to book a trip. Some can make enough money that they want the "best" experience they can have and are willing to pay for it. Others go with friends and camp out. Our fellowship is broad enough and inclusive enough to support all these options. We have our own preferences, but that does not mean that the preferences of others are wrong.

    For example, I prefer to dry fly fish in Wisconsin and nymph in Montana. Why? Because I know when the hatches occur on my local Wisconsin streams and I can choose when to go fishing. Montana is a 1250 mile trip for me and I have to nymph because most of the time I am fishing, there are no hatches. So am I a dry fly fisher or a nympher? I am both because it is situational.

    That is exactly how I view hiring a guide. It is situational. Whether it is a newbie that hires a guide, or an experienced fly fisher that is visiting a new river, or a fly fisher that books a trip to a lodge where guides are part of the package, or a fly fisher that want to float fish. etc, etc.

    Also one does not need to hire a guide to learn from a guide. There are lots of guides on the Madison River where I fish. I know the river well now after fishing it for over 20 years. But early in my career, I used to watch the guides. Where did they place the client? Why did they place the client there? How did they rig the outfit? How far was the cast? How long was the drift. How did they mend? You get the idea.

    Sure guides compete for some of the places I fish. The Madison can and does get crowded. But did I cause the problem or did the guide? C'mon man! We both did and it does not suit me well to blame the guide when I am there as well. Besides, the only the client is fishing. Truthfully, I would rather have a newbie with a guide that knows fly fishing courtesy than a newbie who does not.

    Most of the guides I have met are really good people. When you fish the Madison every day for 10 days, you sometimes see the same guide a few times during that period. Greet them. They are people too. Life is too short. And I have to tell you I have had more problems with other fly fishers crowding me than a guide with a client. I would rather have a guide come by than a couple of regular fly fishers because I have NEVER had a guide and client jump in the run I was fishing, but I have had other fly fishers do so several times including this past July. Hence, I prefer a newbie with a guide than one on their own.

    Heres a guy from a few years ago that jumped in a spot I was fishing. This is actually how close he eventually got to me. You can see the fly line from my rod hanging down on the left side of the photo for perspective.



    Here is a wide angle I took before he gradually came up to me that shows that the rest of the river below him is totally empty. I would have preferred that he was with a guide.

    Last edited by silver creek; 11-13-2017 at 12:55 PM.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  5. #63
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    Default Re: Never fished/w a Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by karstopo View Post
    What does a guide cost on one of the more popular rivers in the west? Does it matter on price if itís a wading or rowing trip?
    Different waters cost differently....
    I do a half day walk and wade for $285.and a full day for $385. (That's dark to dark.)
    Locally a boat half day $385.- 485.
    A boat trip in Idaho....full day is $530.
    I provide everything you need for the day.......
    But, always ask what is included before booking with a guide.

    Jim

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  7. #64

    Default Re: Never fished/w a Guide

    I've been fishing for a long time and in many cases am older than and have more years of experience on a specific river than the professional guides that ply it. I've been casting a dry fly on the upper Delaware since 1975 when there were but few fly fishers on the Main Stem and, back then there was one wooden drift boat on the river and it was private. Today, my wife and I regularly stay at one or the other of the two camps on the West Branch, the DRC and the W.Br. Angler. I know a number of the guides there socially but mostly we fish by driving to an access and wading on our own.

    A couple of times each spring though, mostly during high water, we will drift the river with one of these guides. They all know and like the same sections on the system that I do plus, being on the water near every day, they have spots I am less familiar with. Also, for any one who frequents larger rivers, there is fact of life...A fine trout is rising on a bank in but a foot of water but the optimal casting positon to show him a fly from is in 4 or 5 feet of water. Without a skillfully and quietly maneuvered drift boat anchored accurately, such fish are inaccessible to me when wading. Same thing on many of the larger Western rivers I visit.

    Like Bigfly suggests, interview your guide or outfitter to obtain a good match. I let them know I am not into numbers but quality and I hope to fish on the surface sight fishing exclusively. Often there is a guide out of a* shop who is thrilled to fish a client so inclined, on the Delaware it is virtually all the guides as that is how one fishes there.

    I am relatively fortunate to be able to drive to a great wild trout fishery like the upper Delaware watershed and out to Long Island for quality saltwater fishing. The lure though of adventurous travel to great fisheries both within and beyond the US boarders is strong in me. Passionate about bonefishing, I have flown to numerous out islands in the Bahamas and elsewhere. For a quarter of a century, a small group of friends an I would select a lesser know island and find a house and boat to rent there and do an annual DIY two week flats adventure. I've waded many a flat without a guide or anyone but my companions in sight and I learned a great deal. I'm older know and tend to spend more money staying in a camp with guides. I've continued to learn and one thing I now know is fishing from a skillfully poled skiff shows me a lot more water, I glean insight and local lore from men who were raised on these islands and I like coming back to steaming conch fritters at cocktail hour. I test my fish spotting powers against the guides (silently) and mostly they outperform me. I do tie my own knots though.

    While my wife and our friends and I mostly fish on our own, to not employ a senior guide under the correct circumstances is to miss out on potentially expansive opportunities.

    On the big Delaware with Bruce...no way I'm wading to this fish in the Black Hole.


    Up a creek in a remote area of a Bahamian Island, even in the good old days of my youth, I would never have found my way in...or out of this great spot.

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  9. #65
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    Default Re: Never fished/w a Guide

    By no means am I anti-guide. They're a great option and only option at times. There are sites, including this one, where people can get the skinny on many guide services. In every field there is a spectrum of talent. Getting a specific talent better be the spoken up front desire when hiring the guide....But again, no guarantee of degree of excellence so do some shopping because paying $170 for a plastic wrapped collectors book that you want to read is not wise shopping.

    I also agree with guides, as a whole, being respectful of other anglers. As "that guy" intruded your space Silver, I've had guides place their clients closer to me on the Uncompahgre and Taylor; side channels compared to the river in your pictures. I had quiet discussions with those guides about what he did and what he just taught. It goes both ways but I would agree about a guide knowing some of the common sense practices of "etiquette" for the locale and teaching this to the client. I do agree with the worst being non-guided anglers that commonly fish shoulder to shoulder rivers(usually east coast)and then use that practice on a western river. LOL. I've meet some wonderful people this way and I can easily forgive the solo guy or client but not a guide.

    Few thoughts.

    Crowding is not a guide's fault. This is the result of angling being a sought recreation. I have my opinions about permits, private boats and crowding but that is a different discussion. We all enjoy the rewards of having an "industry" and with this comes people. Best to just swallow this fact because it will not change.

    One bad experience is all that it can take. A sour taste in a new angler's mouth after spending money can create a disdain for the entire profession. It is not "fair" but that is the truth. So when they spend $295, they expect, no, demand a return on their money. So the pressure is on. You will not tell a beginner, that just paid money to learn how to fish, that there is a difference between fishing and catching. Sorry, but TANK! It can be these pressures that lead many people to stray from more acceptable practices; crowding a hole and my favorite.... Entomology hell, spaghetti and meatballs will put a fish in the boat. lol

    Any service is worth the money when the service fulfills the reasons the client made the purchase. "Above and beyond" service is the objective.

    I've been removed from guiding for over 20 years and I know it has change as the rivers have changed. The outdoor DIY guys are a dying breed and in some circles being "guided" is some kind of social status. Many are getting up there in years and like to enjoy more of the fun part and not the work part. Plus it's nice to be treated like Royalty from time to time. lol

    CFF

    P.S. I have never had a "bad experience" with a guide but I have relied on them solely to: row, row, row the boat and keep me in the seam; merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, pink and silver gleam. Thank you. Thank you. You are too kind.
    Nice fish! Do you have anymore pictures of it lying in the dirt?
    As publicity increases so does the propensity of tripping over yards of mono attached to a Dipsey sinker.

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  11. #66

    Default Re: Never fished/w a Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by corn fed fins View Post
    I also agree with guides, as a whole, being respectful of other anglers. As "that guy" intruded your space Silver, I've had guides place their clients closer to me on the Uncompahgre and Taylor; side channels compared to the river in your pictures. I had quiet discussions with those guides about what he did and what he just taught. It goes both ways but I would agree about a guide knowing some of the common sense practices of "etiquette" for the locale and teaching this to the client. I do agree with the worst being non-guided anglers that commonly fish shoulder to shoulder rivers(usually east coast)and then use that practice on a western river. LOL. I've meet some wonderful people this way and I can easily forgive the solo guy or client but not a guide.
    I was on the San Juan a couple of weeks ago. There was a big group in 5 guided drift boats lined up just downstream from the launch. Our guide rowed us across the river to the other side, and put us into more fish than all those other boats combined.
    The next morning we returned to find all those same boats jammed into the spot our guide had found the previous day. Oh well. They got there a few minutes before us, so it's legit... but it goes to show you how some guides will do their own recon, and others will simply follow the leader.
    There's not a day that goes by that I don't wonder how dreary this world would be if elk were bald and birds had no feathers.
    - Hank Patterson

  12. Default Re: Never fished/w a Guide

    I was fishing on the Atlantic coast in the southeastern U.S. a few weeks back. A local guide drives up shouting, "What the f-(& are you doing out here in that go66&m9 flats boat. I've fished that spot forever and you punks pick a pretty day to come out here and wave me off. Don't f-ing wave me off. Get the f- back in the bay where you belong." Mind you, we had been fishing a school of tarpon on this spot for half hour before he even came running up way too close to us. And I was with another local guide. The other local just shouted back, "T0887, why are you yelling at me? It's me, N38m&n. I'm on a school of fish. Sorry, I didn't mean to ruin your morning." We left about five minutes later. Wow. Just wow. I can't believe this guy has clients. Especially if any of them are repeat clients.

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  14. #68

    Default Re: Never fished/w a Guide

    Those guides would fall into the bad guide category I mentioned.

    One thing I learned from a very wise philosopher is never judge a population by the behavior of the worst in any group with a specific creed, belief structure, or occupation. Always judge the group by those who obey their mandated behavior.

    I would hate a landowner to judge me by the behavior of littering fly fishers.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  16. #69
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    Default Re: Never fished/w a Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
    Those guides would fall into the bad guide category I mentioned.

    One thing I learned from a very wise philosopher is never judge a population by the behavior of the worst in any group with a specific creed, belief structure, or occupation. Always judge the group by those who obey their mandated behavior.

    I would hate a landowner to judge me by the behavior of littering fly fishers.
    Very valid Silver. On the water I have seen the best and worse from anglers, guides, clients, rafters, kayakers, dog walkers, animal rights activists....you name it and I probably have a story with some form of negative behavior. I myself have played less than nice a few times and as justified as I thought I was it, it was still bad behavior. I cringe to think that someone would charaterize me, then apply that to fly anglers in general, all from those personal momentary lapses of reason(aka being STUPID).









    Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
    Nice fish! Do you have anymore pictures of it lying in the dirt?
    As publicity increases so does the propensity of tripping over yards of mono attached to a Dipsey sinker.

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