Orvis rods less durable?

[possiebugger]

So I have fly fished pretty regularly for about 12 years now. The past couple years I've spent 100+ days on the water. In my entire fly fishing career I have fished Orvis, Sage, TFO, Redington, and St. Croix rods all pretty extensively.

I broke a fly rod on 4 different occasions. On each occasion the break occurred while actually doing fishing things - that is, the rod broke casting or fighting a fish or chipping ice off an eyelet, as opposed to just accidentally slamming a rod in a car door or something. Each break involved a break in the blank, as opposed to other components coming apart.

Each has been an Orvis.

My latest Orvis rod, an H2, just snapped in half while casting streamers last fall. I made a warranty claim, but kind of lost faith in the rod after it broke. I decided I wanted to part with it, put it up for sale, and found a buyer. I took it out for one last cast before parting ways, and it broke again!

This time I was chipping ice off the eyelets, just like I've done countless other times with countless other rods. When I got the ice off the tip eyelet, the entire tip was somehow broken in half, as if the ice was the only thing holding the rod together. It didn't even crack or snap or anything. Just...broken.

So what gives? I know Orvis has great customer service and everything, but are their rod blanks inferior quality or something? Do they have a hard time handling extensive use? Anyone else have a similar experience with Orvis or other brands being less durable?

 

[mka]

I have three rod quivers that include the premium rods...Orvis, Winston, and Sage. And, I actually have more confidence in my Orvis quiver in view of quality and company support than any of the other two. I've been fishing Orvis for more years than I care to acknowledge, and have fewer quality issues with Orvis than any brand i own.

 

[tcorfey]

Been fishing for over 50 years, only Orvis rod I ever broke was when a truck ran over it. My oldest Orvis rod is a 1959 Bamboo rod and my newest is a H2 with many in between. Nope, never had a problem with breakage on an Orvis rod. I also have had or do have Sage, TFO, Redington, Targus, Allen, Shakespeare, G.Loomis, a few custom rods and a few other rod manufacturers product and have not broke any of those either. Wait, I broke a Grainger fiberglass rod once but I repaired it. My wife broke a TFO rod once and TFO repaired it.

Breaking an H2 rod on purpose
YouTube

Tim Rajeff on Rod breakage
YouTube

Testing Recon and Superfine Glass rods
YouTube

Tim Rajeff has other videos that are similar for Echo rods.

Regards Tim C.

 

[Lewis Chessman]

Just a thought but might freezing temperatures make any rod less flexible, more brittle and therefore more likely to break?

 

[moucheur2003]

I broke a guide's Recon rod last year on a clumsy cast when I whacked it with a weighted double-nymph rig, but I don't think that was Orvis's fault. The reality is that all rods have become more brittle as manufacturers have moved toward using ever-higher-modulus carbon fiber. They try to compensate for this with ever-stronger scrims and resins to bind the fibers, but if the fibers receive any kind of shock -- like being hit with a split shot or weighted nymph on a clumsy cast, or a rebounding tree limb during a hike to the water -- they can be damaged, and eventually the scrim alone won't hold the structure together. This tendency can be aggravated by poor design, poor manufacturing, or inferior materials; however, Orvis's materials technology and quality control are among the best in the business. Even among the best rodmakers, though, an occasional poor design of one particular length or line weight might have unusual problems.

Do you fish Orvis rods more often than any other brand? If so, it would stand to reason that you would observe problems with Orvis rods more often. But that does not necessarily mean that the same problems would occur less often if you switched to another brand.

 

[rsagebrush]

Nope! never had a problem with them. I had a ferrule break on a Burkeimer in Argentina in 1997, he fixed it when i got back though, never a problem since. All the other breaks have been from boots and other man caused mishaps.

I believe most rods today, even the budget ones are quite solidly made.

 

[sweetandsalt]

I have many rods from all the major and a number of secondary even minor rod makers. I have fished Orvis rods since the 1970's and Scotts too and Loomis and Sage from the mid 80's forward. There were certain early (Florida) Redington rods I really liked but they were fragile and I broke two. An outgrowth of that company was Albright, I broke two of their rods also. I used to fish a number of Vermont Diamondback rods; they were particularly durably built and I never broke one even under some remarkably harsh circumstances. I have also never broken a G.Loomis or Sage rod either including extremely slender and light weight Sage ONE, two of which see a lot of water time from me.

I am unclear how many Orvis rods I've had break, more than all the others combined though. Early ones like my beloved Western Series of the mid-80's were fairly durable but like all early Orvis graphite's featured their poorly designed tip over, 3-part, glued on sleeve ferrule...these were prone to cracking or splitting leading Orvis to finally join the other makers and forming mandrel based tip over designs, much stronger and smoother too. The Orvis rod shop, through the 1990's, was so paranoid about breakage and warranty costs (which they invented) that they would overided a rod designers ideas and reinforce the tip yielding a generation of tip heavy unpleasantness.

I own few Orvis rods from that time period but my favorite breakage story goes like this: I had a great autumn day of fly fishing. I joined the Theodore Gordon Fly Fishers for a morning outing on the Connetquot River on Long Island and caught a number of very colorful brook trout on a little 4-weight. After a picnic lunch, I departed for the Springs out east and met my long-time saltwater guide friend for an afternoon of albie fishing. The tide was good and the wind was light on a lovely warm and calm day. Fish were everywhere with the little tuny strafing pods of bay anchovies ferociously. The boat came to rest and I fired off a cast fishing with my new Orvis Trident TL 9'/#9. As is their want, the albie blasted of a spectacular run, tired a bit and I turned him regaining some line. I got my backing back onto the excellent Orvis 1st. generation Vortex reel that was part of the outfit and with perhaps 50' of fly line out the tip top, a sound like a small caliber round being fired accompanied the new rod exploding into 7 pieces. Catastrophic failure occurs when a rod's structural integrity is exceeded by ovalized stress. No, no high sticking was involved, the fly was unweight and the never-before-used rod had not been struck against anything, it was simply not up top the task of being a 9-weight. Sure, they quickly replaced it and the replacement did not break but hasn't gotten extensive water time either since it also is a mediocre caster. It is one of two rods I have experienced catastrophic failure with, the other being a perhaps too light weight Albright EXS 12-weight on my infamous full moon, Islamorada, tarpon tackle destruction trip. At least it cast well land landed a few fish prior to exploding in the end game with a 100 pounder nearly beside the boat.

 

[spm]

I have only broken one rod, an Orvis Clearwater from the 90s, and it was through my own fault.
You can read about it, here, if you like.
https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/blogs/spm/479-yes-my-own-fault-but-orvis-saved-day.html

Orvis took care of it no problem.

steve (an Orvis guy)

 

[sweetandsalt]

I should add, my buddy and I were able to laugh off the failed Trident as we had other rods aboard his boat, so fishing continued unabated. He did chide me for sporting sub-standard equipment though. Also, though H2's have developed a reputation for tip breakage, our H2#5 tip-flex remains unscathed. However, that same guide got an H2#10 and has broken it twice. Also, all the rods I've ever broken happened under fishing circumstances, some due to inappropriate behavior like another friend "helping" me land a bonefish by grabbing the tip of my then favorite 8-weight. I have yet to slam a car door, stick a ceiling fan or entangle a dog...yet.

Also, all rods are not designed to be rugged. There are "sports car", thin walled, small diameter dry fly specialty rods that just won't survive flinging weight or yanking flies out of cross creek willows. I use rods as their designer intended and like to say, "Don't tow your boat trailer down a rutted track with your Lamborghini". In recent years though, employing advanced multi-modulus compressed fiber alignments or Nano particulate resin systems, rod makers have achieved remarkably light weight and slender profiles while retaining very good durability. Still, fly rods are hollow tubes and are easily crushed, treat them kindly.

 

[possiebugger]

Thanks for your responses!

Indeed, I considered whether freezing temps could make a rod brittle. If it does, it apparently happens only to this particular Orvis rod, as I've picked ice off of plenty of other rods and never had an issue.

I also thought maybe I just used Orvis rods more often. Years ago that may have been the case, but more recently, I've hesitated to fish the Orvis rods just cuz I was worried about them breaking, go figure.

The whole reason I ended up with the H2 is cuz I upgraded instead of making another warranty claim the second time my old Frequent Flyer's ferrule split down the middle.

How have I had such bad luck with a certain brand? And really just with their rods. All my other Orvis gear has been good.

Part of me wants to contact Orvis and explain the situation, though part of me wants to just sell it - apparently the guy still wants to buy it, broken tip and all.

 

[banjominnow]

You've lost confidence in the rod. I'd sell it and move on. There's no point holding onto a rod you have no confidence in.

 

[sweetandsalt]

"The whole reason I ended up with the H2 is cuz I upgraded instead of making another warranty claim the second time my old Frequent Flyer's ferrule split down the middle."

In fairness to Orvis, I doubt (but don't actually know) that awful Frequent Flyer, worse Encounter and other low end product is made by Orvis in their own rod shop. This stuff is contracted Asian factory product which may visually appear OK but hides cross-crossed fibers and lay-up gaps beneath its painted surface. Further, one can fish light line trout rods with a far lower rate of failure (breakage under angling load) than heavy line size, big game intended rods where the stresses are substantially greater and fabrication/design flaws are amplified. I would have no confidence issues fishing H2, a very good rod compared to very poor Frequent Flyer.

 

[moucheur2003]

The whole reason I ended up with the H2 is cuz I upgraded instead of making another warranty claim the second time my old Frequent Flyer's ferrule split down the middle.

I happen to have an 8' 6", 5 weight, 7-piece, Orvis Trident TL. When the TL series was discontinued, they used the same blank for a Frequent Flyer series with cheaper hardware. Maybe that is te rod you broke. I haven't had any problems with it myself, other than finding it tip-heavy, but I have been told by a senior Orvis executive that that particular model was a "bad rod". (He didn't elaborate as to why.)

 

[sweetandsalt]

I just checked with my "pal" at Orvis Cust. Serv. and indeed Frequent Flyer and Clearwater are..."[Tom] They are both currently being made in China. I believe the early Clearwater's were made in Korea".

It is very difficult to make graphite rods with many ferrules. Not only the Orvis one but the classic Hardy Smuggler is mighty clunky too. Winston built at home in Montana a 5-piece rod, also terrible. Ironically, the best one I've cast (I actually own but never use a 5 & 8-weight version) which, in fairness, is "only" a 5-piece model, was the now long gone, modestly priced, Korean-built Albright A-5.

 

[moucheur2003]

I just checked with my "pal" at Orvis Cust. Serv. and indeed Frequent Flyer and Clearwater are..."[Tom] They are both currently being made in China. I believe the early Clearwater's were made in Korea".

Those FF's must be different rods than mine, then. The TL blanks were made in Vermont.

It is very difficult to make graphite rods with many ferrules. Not only the Orvis one but the classic Hardy Smuggler is mighty clunky too. Winston built at home in Montana a 5-piece rod, also terrible. Ironically, the best one I've cast (I actually own but never use a 5 & 8-weight version) which, in fairness, is "only" a 5-piece model, was the now long gone, modestly priced, Korean-built Albright A-5.

Yeah, the more ferrules, the more weight and the less continuous flex. Four pieces seems to be the happy medium between feel and portability.

But did somebody say "Albright" again? Aaugh! Break out the garlic and the silver crucifixes! :icon_wink

 

[sweetandsalt]

Right next to the butt half of my broken 8'9" Western here on my desk is the butt 1/3 of also broken Albright EXS#12. Unlike the piece of Orvis plastic, it is not a "memento" rather the tool I employ to mount a reel for winding on or off a fly line.

 

[proheli]

Chipping ice off of anything that is fairly fragile sounds risky to me. Sheer strength, torsional strength, fast little shocks to something frozen... I don’t know enough about fishing poles or yourself, so this is not a personal comment, but if I had just done what you said, I’d be more likely to blame myself and call it a lesson learned.

 

[sweetandsalt]

I chipped ice out of the snakes on my 1985 Orvis Western 10'/#7 GL steelhead rod about a million times with no ill effects except to my thumb.

 

[jschaffer]

Great discussion. Just like anything, you may get a bad blanks or have the perfect conditions for bad luck. My luck with Orvis has been spectacular and that is in some pretty tuff conditions (I use my gear, so some might say I don't take very good care of it). Between their quality and the customer service, I will keep buying Orvis.

 

[bumble54]

I have broken many rods in my time, all bar one were through carelessness, the one rod that broke whilst casting was a Hardy.
In the quest for lightness, wall thicknesses get thinner and are more prone to weaknesses, they can make you a rod that is virtually indestructible in normal usage but the downside would be weight.
Two rods apparently the same, one weighs 3 1/2 oz the other weighs 5oz, which will sell most and which would you choose?.