Where is that expensive rod made?

[346xp]

I have been looking at a few rods lately, some are supposed to be made in the USA (orvis Recon), Winston Nexus........and are not, by any means made here.

What gets me into this is seeing how much actually goes into a new state of the art Carbon Fiber rod. From where the carbon comes from, to where the blanks are rolled, to who actually installs the guides.

I just wonder how many people, myself included have paid, (even using a pro deal) 300-800% markup on a fly rod that is supposed to be "Made in the USA"
No I know that some people are going to get their feelings hurt, and by all means if you suggest to me that your favorite rod is made in the USA, then I ask you, who, in what facility spun the blank?
Most products even have a QC control number so that a product can be raced back to a particular individual who checked it off as good. I don't even see this stuff on these rods.
To make this fair, and avoid a huge fuss, I am in no way saying Chinese or Korean made rods are not good/ great sticks. My syndicates plainly say made in Korea, but how many other very expensive rods are made in that same facility? JS Company for reference....

If a $500 rod can be sold for $225, with shipping, proffit, handling, and a sock and tube, we should all understand that that rod costs the manufacturer about $58 to get to the fly shop.
So that also means its like a $30 rod.

To keep this a reasonable discussion, lets not get started in arguing over what we think because so and so says, and if we have any people that build rods for any larger companies by all means speak up and lets hear what models you actually install guides on. I think we can all agree the key in a great rod is who sets the guides and decides which way the pcs fit together. (Spines the rod)

Again, I own these rods too, so this is just an open discussion.

 

[Ard]

OMG!

These generally don't go so well but I get first post so.....

Try to remember that each of us is free to research the origins of any product we purchase and make decisions based on our findings. In the extreme cases we could argue that although we commissioned a guy in Michigan to split, plane, and build us a custom bamboo rod for $1200.00 that the bamboo actually came from Asia. Lets just stay calm in replies OK

 

[jr spey]

I'm not sure I want to get involved in this one as it's likely going to go south very quickly. Let me point out that I just checked both the Orvis and the Winston website. The Orvis Recon definitely says, "Proudly Made in the U.S.A." The Winston site says nothing about the original of the Nexus and even hints at the fact that it may not be American made. My question to you would be what makes you certain the Recon is not made here and what makes you think that Winston claims the Nexus is? The law is actually very clear on this. If it is made anywhere other than the US it MUST state so on the product as well as the packaging if there is any. Most companies abide by that, but I had one heck of a time getting some of the European reelmakers that I worked with will do to do, and many never did and still don't. Unfortunately, the law also says it is the retail dealer who is liable for selling something not correctly marked.

 

[corn fed fins]

Boo, glass, graphite? A "named" manufacture or private vendor? I was looking at the traditional Korean "rod" and they can cost thousands. I know a guy that builds graphite rod and his start at $1500. How about antique? Big question and full of opinion.

If we remove the relationship of cost and quality, I can build you a rod for $100,000,000. Doesn't mean it's quality. Doesn't mean it's "better". Just a rod that costed $100,000,000. Any takers?

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[jkim]

Speaking of Korean made fly rods... I know of a person who is in fishing rod manufacturing business. He and I went to same university (one of the best) in Korea, majored in Electrical Engineering. I came over to America for my graduate study (yes, I'm still here) and he went through some hardship due to his stubborn personality then got into fishing rod/accessories trade business and finally ended up making his own rods. He now makes spin rods for Korea and Japan markets, doing well against cheap Chinese imports and makes OEM based fly rods all over the world, such as Orvis, Hardy, etc... either unfinished blanks or finished fly rods. He buys high grade graphite polymers from big manufacturers in Korea and fabricate them into fishing rods. And that's his business secret and one of the reasons for his success. I didn't get any free fly rod from him though. He never offered. I should have bought him some beer while we were in college. But that was 40 years ago already.

 

[pnc]

BLAAAAAHH ! Sorry, had to. Back to calm.
What is it op is saying... get over it if you didn't already know ?
One reason for building rods is. I want to be the one who splines rod, places & adjusts guides before wrapping. If I want what I consider the best for a given application. Where parts come from do not limit choices. Though, some may have bearing on choices made.

......... pc

 

[sweetandsalt]

I think we can all agree the key in a great rod is who sets the guides and decides which way the pcs fit together. (Spines the rod)

We (I) do not agree. I consider a "great" rod to have three factors in play: 1. The art and skill of the rod designer and his staff who determines the taper itself, 2. The material science, graphite and resin form which the blank is crafted and 3. The craftsmanship of the men and women that roll, tape, bake and finish the blank into a rod. That rolling of the carbon fiber flags around the mandrel maintaining fiber alignment with no overlaps or lay-up gaps is a big part of what sets a "Made in America" fly rod a big leap beyond an off-shore factory mass produced rod. Yes, some of the Korean produced rods are well fabricated too and may represent a good price to performance value.

All Sage, Scott and T&T rods are built from scratch in the USA along with the top of the line Orvis and Winston rods. Some lower tier rods bearing the Orvis name, Clearwater, Encounter etc. are built in China but Recon is USA made. All G.Loomis rods are built in Washington State except their top of the line, $1,000 Asquith's blank and reel seat are made in Japan and finished in WA. There is a technological story behind that though.

I mostly prefer to fish US made fly rods because, more often than not, they are the best. However, in a few days my wife and I are traveling to Florida and, while our fishing opportunity likely will be minimal, the two rods I'm packing are both made in S. Korea. And, my newest rod is made in Hungary with Paprika colored wraps.

 

[corn fed fins]

Rod building location can also depend on tier of rod. Some intro rods can be made overseas.

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P.s.Most high end manufactures would say their rods are so well made the spline is insignificant and that a cosmetically good looking rod takes priority. So when you spline a section it could actaully be bent. I'm not nearly good enough to see the difference a spline has on my casting but I am good enough to see a rod arched from tip to butt.

 

[dean_mt]

Are you going to explain your research or show us that Orvis Recons are not made "by any means" in the US? That's a bold accusation. Do you mean that the raw material wasn't developed in the US?

I don't trust every marketing statement I read or hear, but usually it's clear the difference between "made in" and "assembled in" language. I do not think the Winston has ever claimed that Nexus is made in the USA. They also do not advertise that it isn't. Like Simms waders, you have to look for the made in Bozeman statement, if it isn't there then they weren't made here.

 

[pnc]

We (I) do not agree. I consider a "great" rod to have three factors in play: 1. The art and skill of the rod designer and his staff who determines the taper itself, 2. The material science, graphite and resin form which the blank is crafted and 3. The craftsmanship of the men and women that roll, tape, bake and finish the blank into a rod. That rolling of the carbon fiber flags around the mandrel maintaining fiber alignment with no overlaps or lay-up gaps is a big part of what sets a "Made in America" fly rod a big leap beyond an off-shore factory mass produced rod. Yes, some of the Korean produced rods are well fabricated too and may represent a good price to performance value.

All Sage, Scott and T&T rods are built from scratch in the USA along with the top of the line Orvis and Winston rods. Some lower tier rods bearing the Orvis name, Clearwater, Encounter etc. are built in China but Recon is USA made. All G.Loomis rods are built in Washington State except their top of the line, $1,000 Asquith's blank and reel seat are made in Japan and finished in WA. There is a technological story behind that though.

I mostly prefer to fish US made fly rods because, more often than not, they are the best. However, in a few days my wife and I are traveling to Florida and, while our fishing opportunity likely will be minimal, the two rods I'm packing are both made in S. Korea. And, my newest rod is made in Hungary with Paprika colored wraps.

Lol........paprikosh on stove. Where will you be in Florida ?

........ pc

 

[hunter1]

I do know with some products, Parts are made over sea's, assembled in the U.S.A. and can be sold as made in the U.S.A.

 

[moucheur2003]

I don't mind buying high quality manufactured products from Asia. Some of the most state-of-the-art materials and manufacturing are located in Japan and Korea. I have owned 3 Japanese cars which have all been remarkably trouble-free, and my son just bought a Hyundai which has the best warranty going. The same quality can be found in rods and reels. I love my Korean-made Hardy Zenith rods and LRH reel.

And for those who consider it unpatriotic not to buy American, let's not forget that a lot of Americans fought and died so that Korea could develop a prosperous, world-class economy. When we buy from Korea we honor their sacrifice too.

 

[pnc]

Hmmm... from previous posts a tidbit..... European mfgs don't list info on boxes. Sage does not have this printed on box as is their WA. address, phone #, and site info. On the bottem of box a label with bar code says made in Korea. And sticker on reel foot N. Korea.

......... pc

 

[dean_mt]

Hmmm... from previous posts a tidbit..... European mfgs don't list info on boxes. Sage does not have this printed on box as is their WA. address, phone #, and site info. On the bottem of box a label with bar code says made in Korea. And sticker on reel foot N. Korea.

......... pc

What are you trying to say? None of this makes much sense. Sage does not claim to make reels in the USA, fly rods, yes. Sage is a fly rod maker first and foremost.

Let's not try to pick fights here. I'm done with this thread.

 

[corn fed fins]

I think Ard called this one right off the top. RIP thread. Lol

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[yikes]

I have been looking at a few rods lately, some are supposed to be made in the USA (orvis Recon)

Orvis likes to post videos of their Vermont rod shop, so you can check it out for yourself and see how much of the process occurs in their shop. First half of the video is a design narrative, second half is clips showing manufacturing:
[video]https://flyfishingvideos.orvis.com/gear/orvis-fly-rods-made-usa/[/video]

I assume that some materials come from overseas. For example, about 97% of the world's cork comes from southern Europe / north Africa, with about 80% from Portugal and Spain.

 

[bonefish41]

SS the only paprik rod you should take is a 8 or 9 wt Method. To add I buy USA rolled blanks Sage...if their fabric comes from an obscure and secretive Samurai sword maker turned weaver all the better...but it's who makes it... that's what important to me...whilst I do not buy off shore blanks/rods based upon recommendations of any "consultants or "pro-staffs" or forum shills or claques, at least one major off shore company prices its Korean rods reasonably and not 500 to 700 as others do. And that goes for soft goods...why would any rationale consumer pay 100 for a brand nylon shirt made in China, et al when the same nylon shirt from Bass Pro et al for 25 ...I will never and have never paid retail for off shore soft wear. I don't buy marketing brand name hype made in Asia...I still fish in 30 year old original Simms Tarponware USA...and yes my reasons are partly political. I do not make my living and support my flyfishing from Asia. But what really P me off is when the Brand names hide the country of origin or do a bait and switch initially USA then switch to China but retail price remains the same...and whenever I see a price drop a bit from USA mfg retail always the mfg is China. Another marketing camo...when you see "imported" the only ID you came bet the farm it's Asia...'cause brand marketer's never conceal Germany , France, Italy, GB, et al as MFG. I simply do not want to be played for the fool by MBA's in marketing/advertising for my purchasing dollar. As they say but I do not buy...pay for the sizzle not the steak...

 

[silver creek]

I have been looking at a few rods lately, some are supposed to be made in the USA (orvis Recon), Winston Nexus........and are not, by any means made here.

What gets me into this is seeing how much actually goes into a new state of the art Carbon Fiber rod. From where the carbon comes from, to where the blanks are rolled, to who actually installs the guides.

I just wonder how many people, myself included have paid, (even using a pro deal) 300-800% markup on a fly rod that is supposed to be "Made in the USA"
No I know that some people are going to get their feelings hurt, and by all means if you suggest to me that your favorite rod is made in the USA, then I ask you, who, in what facility spun the blank?
Most products even have a QC control number so that a product can be raced back to a particular individual who checked it off as good. I don't even see this stuff on these rods.
To make this fair, and avoid a huge fuss, I am in no way saying Chinese or Korean made rods are not good/ great sticks. My syndicates plainly say made in Korea, but how many other very expensive rods are made in that same facility? JS Company for reference....

If a $500 rod can be sold for $225, with shipping, proffit, handling, and a sock and tube, we should all understand that that rod costs the manufacturer about $58 to get to the fly shop.
So that also means its like a $30 rod.

To keep this a reasonable discussion, lets not get started in arguing over what we think because so and so says, and if we have any people that build rods for any larger companies by all means speak up and lets hear what models you actually install guides on. I think we can all agree the key in a great rod is who sets the guides and decides which way the pcs fit together. (Spines the rod)

Again, I own these rods too, so this is just an open discussion.

I am compelled to reply because I see presuppositions, and no facts. If the presuppositions upon which an argument is based are falacial, then the argument is falacial

Where are you getting the information that a $500 rod costs $30 to build? Also where does that 300 - 800% markup come from?

The numbers make no sense. Even assuming a manufacturer could get a customer to pay an 800% markup, an 800% mark up on a $30 cost to manufacture rod = 8 x $30 = $240 = an error of over 100% off from the $500 you say the rod retails for. Me thinks there are numbers being pulled out of a hat rather than being based on demonstrable facts.

I have two personal points of reference and a basic law of economics.

First is James Greenlee. Jim was a personal friend and a financier who provided the initial funding for several fly fishing companies. They include Nautilus Reels, Korkers, and Streamborn of Canada (50% original partner in TFO Rods). Jim investigated Sage when it was for sale. He met with the owners and had his accountants go over the "books" to see what the company was worth based on the Return On Investment and Free Cash Flow. So he had intimate knowledge of how profitable Sage was. He told me that he could earn more by buying US treasury Bonds than by buying Sage; and that the ROI of Sage was less than Weinbrenner, the company that he did own.

The second fact is that I happened to call Sage when there was a discussion about the repair of a Demo Sage Fly Rod. Sage charged $70 for all repairs at the time. It cost Sage more than their $70 repairs. If Sage loses money charging $70 for repairs, how can they make a $500 rod for $30?

See page 4, Reply #39

Disappointing Sage DEMO rod repair

"I called Sage and had a discussion about this issue with their rep.

An interesting fact is that Sage loses money on every paid repair. The fee is $70 and they pay for Fedex shipping both ways.

The rep said that a rod repair is handed by a minimum of 12 and a maximum of 20 workers at Sage and that the $70 fee does not come close to covering materials and labor. So those who say that rod repairs are cheap are wrong."

Third Fact - There is the Economic Theory of Price. This states that a free market sets the price for any item through the supply demand curve.

"The theory of price is an economic theory that contends that the price for any specific good/service is based on the relationship between the forces of supply and demand . The theory of price says that the point at which the benefit gained from those who demand the entity meets the seller's marginal costs is the most optimal market price for the good/service."

Theory Of Price

So assuming the pricing of fly rods and the consumption of fly rods is a free market (there is no collusion between sellers or buyers), the market will set the price of a rod which sets the profit on a rod. This means that if there is excessive pricing that creates excessive profits, other manufacturers will enter the market because there is an opportunity to make more (higher ROI) than from making widgets. The additional manufacturers then lower the price by creating more supply.

So can you demonstrate why the Economic Theory of Price would not be valid for fly rods?

 

[kevind62]

I haven't gone through the trouble of reading all the posts. But here goes.

Today, quality is not about "where" as much as it is "who". Where being country. All carbon rods are produced through automation. It's all about the manufacturing equipment and more importantly, quality control. Quality engineered manufacturing equipment is available an used world wide. The actual competency level of the operator of the equipment and the quality standard of the base manufacturer themselves is what makes the raw material good, great, or bad.

Having said all that, overall, China ranks at the bottom for quality control. They always have. That's one of the main reasons for their cheap prices. They can mass produce because of this. Now, before anyone jumps in and begs to differ, that's not to say that "all" Chinese manufacturers are of the lowest quality. But they lead the pack by the largest margin. In the "cheap labor" market Taiwan and Korea are among the leaders in quality control. They have learned the importance of quality control. I know someone is going to say "what about Japan"? Japan is no longer considered a "cheap labor" country. Although their labor is still cheap compared to US and European countries. They have been able to offset the rise in labor costs through automation in the manufacturing section.

People tend to think that high price means the manufacturing of the product should come at a high cost to justify it. Not so. Think of rocks. A diamond is just a rock. It takes no more effort and equipment to dig it up than to dig up any other rock. Yet it's highly prized and sought after. It's all about quality, demand, and craftsmanship.

Made In The USA?? Does this unwaveringly mean highest quality? Sad to bust your bubble, but in today's world no. With the onslaught of "entitlement", the American workforce is rapidly deteriorating. The new generation is concerned less and less with taking pride in what they do. I'm all about keeping things in this country and supporting Made In The USA. But sadly, the guy building the rod demands the highest standard from himself and puts forth that effort in putting together the product, but the guy spinning the carbon is just punching a clock waiting for the weekend. He/she is only interested in putting out the required quota for the day.

One thing about labeling. Although it may say "Made In The USA", somewhere in the labeling fine print you'll find "materials used to make this product may come from country X, Y, or Z". And many times this fine print labeling is hidden in a vast paragraph of technical jargon. As long as it's on the label it's legal. In some cases the supplier is required to put "Assembled In The USA" instead of "Made". But, many times the retailers pack these under their own label and can change that. The other info about the manufacturer will be there, but again, buried in the fine print. This is sort of a loophole. If a manufacturer uses a mix of US made material along with imported material, unless there is a government mandate for certain products from a certain countries, they can use the phrase "Made In The USA" instead of "Assembled" since the possibility is there that none of the materials are imported as long as they include the disclaimer that some materials "may" come from imported sources.

 

[markfrid]

... assuming the pricing of fly rods and the consumption of fly rods is a free market (there is no collusion between sellers or buyers), the market will set the price of a rod which sets the profit on a rod. This means that if there is excessive pricing that creates excessive profits, other manufacturers will enter the market because there is an opportunity to make more (higher ROI) than from making widgets. The additional manufacturers then lower the price by creating more supply.

So can you demonstrate why the Economic Theory of Price would not be valid for fly rods?

(Quote often attributed to George Bernard Shaw), "If all the economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion."

To which some wag added, "If all the economists in the world were laid end to end..... it wouldn't be a bad thing."

Love you to death, Mr Silver, but I couldn't help it! Ha-ha!

Mark