So i was out doing some beginner nymphing with my usual 6x tippet and size 20 flies. I hooked into a real nice rainbow but i could not bring him in for the life of me and eventually he shook the fly. Does anyone use maybe 4x tippet on a smaller fly? (Size 20). I dont fish the clearest waters... (Boise river) so I was thinking i could get away with it. I think the fish would have been easier to get in with thicker leader/tippet.
Using bigger tippet for small flies
- Thread starter jayw2942
- Start date
Depending on the conditions, I like to use the largest tippet that will fit in the hook eye. I caught 2 browns last week on a size 18 bwo dry with 4X tippet. Not ideal but it was getting dark and the only flies on the water were bwo's, so I took off my size 14 hendrickson and put on the bwo and caught a couple before dark.
sparsegraystubble
Well-known member
Way back in the early 70s when I took Joe Humphreys class at Penn State, he urged u to build leaders that ended with a tippet no smaller than 5x for flies as small as 22s. he said we should lengthen the tippet as needed instead of going finer.
I haven’t followed that over the years but it makes sense. I think 4x would be a bit stout and stiffer so it might cause more drag, but modern 5x is supple enough to allow a good drift. I honestly think that matching the fly to the tippet makes sense, but length of tippet is as important as pure diameter.
I’ve landed some awfully big trout on 5x so I think that would be plenty strong enough. Trico spinners, 5 feet of 5x and a 5 wt rod earned my first entry into the 20/20 club. And that was in Idaho.
Don
I haven’t followed that over the years but it makes sense. I think 4x would be a bit stout and stiffer so it might cause more drag, but modern 5x is supple enough to allow a good drift. I honestly think that matching the fly to the tippet makes sense, but length of tippet is as important as pure diameter.
I’ve landed some awfully big trout on 5x so I think that would be plenty strong enough. Trico spinners, 5 feet of 5x and a 5 wt rod earned my first entry into the 20/20 club. And that was in Idaho.
Don
rangerrich99
Well-known member
In general, I try to use the strongest tippet I can get through the hookeye. In your case, I can't remember off-hand whether I can get 3x through a sz 20 hook eye, but if I could I'd try it, until the fish told me that it wouldn't work.
However, in answer to your question, I believe 5x tippet (and maybe even 4x) will fit through a sz 20 hook eye, so I'd go ahead and try it. I would use some kind of loop knot (I typically use a uni-knot, but whatever floats your boat), to allow for more freedom of movement with your fly, just in case the heavier tippet could restrict the fly's 'natural' movement in the water.
You might also look at half-size tippets. Trout Hunter (other companies may as well) has spools of 4.5x or 5.5x tippet that might be the ultimate solution to your question.
Peace.
However, in answer to your question, I believe 5x tippet (and maybe even 4x) will fit through a sz 20 hook eye, so I'd go ahead and try it. I would use some kind of loop knot (I typically use a uni-knot, but whatever floats your boat), to allow for more freedom of movement with your fly, just in case the heavier tippet could restrict the fly's 'natural' movement in the water.
You might also look at half-size tippets. Trout Hunter (other companies may as well) has spools of 4.5x or 5.5x tippet that might be the ultimate solution to your question.
Peace.
Love the one that got away...This is not a new phenomenon.
If you did not break the tippet you can't really tell if you were horsing it to much or not. Unless you are on a water that is notoriously a leader shy area I would even go as high as a 3x fluoro with a 20. Just be careful not to straighten your hook.
Love the Boise, one of the last stops on the Fly Highway!
If you did not break the tippet you can't really tell if you were horsing it to much or not. Unless you are on a water that is notoriously a leader shy area I would even go as high as a 3x fluoro with a 20. Just be careful not to straighten your hook.
Love the Boise, one of the last stops on the Fly Highway!
Unknownflyman
Well-known member
I wish I could and I’ve tried but anything over 5X and catch rates go to zero believe or not even swinging and skating flies.
My solution and I really don’t like using brand names anymore but I use powerflex PLUS-5X it’s 6lb test. There are other good products out there too which are similar.
It really bothers me to leave a fly stuck in a fish as well, the product has cut that down dramatically.
On the driftless one can be dry fly fishing catching 10-12” brookies the usual 12-16” browns and hook up with a 21-25” or larger brown you never know.
Fishing for the largest fish proves unproductive fishing for the small fish brings heartbreak. Very clear spring creek style fishing for wild fish is very difficult and often very frustrating.
That’s my best answer I’ve found, willing to learn what others do.
My solution and I really don’t like using brand names anymore but I use powerflex PLUS-5X it’s 6lb test. There are other good products out there too which are similar.
It really bothers me to leave a fly stuck in a fish as well, the product has cut that down dramatically.
On the driftless one can be dry fly fishing catching 10-12” brookies the usual 12-16” browns and hook up with a 21-25” or larger brown you never know.
Fishing for the largest fish proves unproductive fishing for the small fish brings heartbreak. Very clear spring creek style fishing for wild fish is very difficult and often very frustrating.
That’s my best answer I’ve found, willing to learn what others do.
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redietz
Well-known member
Which is the point of lengthening it.
I'm totally in the "use the largest tippet that will fit" school of thought, even in spring creeks.
silver creek
Well-known member
So the tippet did NOT break, the hook pulled free.
I have one question - what makes you think that a thicker tippet would have allowed you to land the fish?
I have several issues with thinking that the tippet was the problem:
The 6X tippets now days is as strong as 4X used to be back in the 1970's, but you have to buy the best tippet like Stroft at 3.96 lbs for 6X. See this tippet test:
https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/g...arivas-sa-climax-maxima-froghair-stoft-umpqua
https://smile.amazon.com/Stroft-GTM-Tippet-Material/dp/B076CS1TL9
The second issue is that tippets are a lot stronger than you think. I think you will be very surprised at how hard it is to break a 4 lb tippet with a fly trout rod.
So I think that in this case, the tippet was not the problem.
As to the question of whether you can use a thicker tippet, the question is not a yes or no. Whenever a question like this is asked, there will be those who say a thicker tippet won't work while others will say that the fish will still hit with with a ticker tippet.
The truth is somewhere in between. Trout behavior is population based. The reality is that some fish that would have hit with a thin tippet will not with a thicker tippet, but there will still be fish you will catch with the thicker tippet. The spookier fish will refuse.
The proportion of fish that will still hit also depends on the type of water you are fishing. If the water is fast with chaotic flows, drag is less detectible and I think you will not put off many fish with the thicker tippet. The fish does not have much time to observe your fly for drag in fast flows. But if the flow is slow and regular, the increased drag with the thicker tippet will be more obvious and the fish will have longer to decide whether to take your fly. So I think you will find your hookup will decrease.
I don't use anything lighter than 5X for dries, and 4X for nymphing, even with small flies down to #20. Often I go heavier than that if I think I can get away with it. When you fish big, high gradient rivers with powerful fish you have to beef things up or you're going to have trouble landing some of those stronger fish.
tcorfey
Well-known member
Maybe this will help...
https://www.blogflyfish.com/2015/03/landing-big-swift-river-trout-on-lig.html
https://www.blogflyfish.com/2015/03/landing-big-swift-river-trout-on-lig.html
planettrout
Well-known member
There is an old adage that one should use " the largest tippet one can get away with." Frankly, I believe that it can be stated that one should use the best tippet material available and stick with a tippet strength and size that doesn't spook Trout ...these are a few:
PUGLISI "POWERFUL" - Nylon
https://www.epflies.com/estore/tippet
STROFT GTM - Nylon
https://www.amazon.com/Stroft-GTM-Tippet-Material/dp/B076CS1TL9
TROUTHUNTER - Fluorocarbon
https://www.amazon.com/Trouthunter-...=8-3&keywords=trouthunter+fluorocarbon+tippet
SEAGUAR MAX - Fluorocarbon
https://www.amazon.com/Seaguar-Max-Fluorocarbon-Tippet-30/dp/B077BVXXNT
Case in point. My son caught this 9lb. 4oz. Rainbow on 5x Seaguar, using a #6 Conehead, Hot Spot Seal bugger five minutes after I told him to throw this stuff in the trash and switch:
https://www.arcfishing.com/products/tippets/
PT/TB
PUGLISI "POWERFUL" - Nylon
https://www.epflies.com/estore/tippet
STROFT GTM - Nylon
https://www.amazon.com/Stroft-GTM-Tippet-Material/dp/B076CS1TL9
TROUTHUNTER - Fluorocarbon
https://www.amazon.com/Trouthunter-...=8-3&keywords=trouthunter+fluorocarbon+tippet
SEAGUAR MAX - Fluorocarbon
https://www.amazon.com/Seaguar-Max-Fluorocarbon-Tippet-30/dp/B077BVXXNT
Case in point. My son caught this 9lb. 4oz. Rainbow on 5x Seaguar, using a #6 Conehead, Hot Spot Seal bugger five minutes after I told him to throw this stuff in the trash and switch:
https://www.arcfishing.com/products/tippets/
PT/TB
look another thread full of overthinking flytards.
It's why this sport is a dandy, it does not matter what it is we can beat it to bruised and bloody and no one is wrong.
The guy hooked the fish, which is a durnsight better than a sharp stick in the eye.
I also agree it had nothing to do with tippet except his attitude towards said tippet. Now snap it!
It's why this sport is a dandy, it does not matter what it is we can beat it to bruised and bloody and no one is wrong.
The guy hooked the fish, which is a durnsight better than a sharp stick in the eye.
I also agree it had nothing to do with tippet except his attitude towards said tippet. Now snap it!
silver creek
Well-known member
Here's the problem you can run into with thicker (read stronger) tippets on small hooks.
There is a technology race between hook manufacturers and tippet makers. What I mean by that is, as tippets and hooks get thinner, the relative mass or amount of steel/nylon/fluorocarbon decreases exponentially. Hooks and tippets are both cylindrical. The mass of a cylinder varies with the SQUARE of the diameter/radius. So if a hook/tippet gets 10% thinner, it has lost 19% (1.0 - (0.9 X 0.9)) of its mass and therefore 19% of its strength. Tiny hooks get progressively weaker as the metal gets thinner and the same happens to tippet material. This balance of thinner and therefore weaker tippet material protects the hooks from breaking and bending open.
The technology of modern polymers has outpaced the technology of metallurgy in the last few years. Tippets are getting stronger and the steel used in hooks are staying much the same.
As you use thicker tippets with smaller hooks than is the usual recommendation, there will come a time when the you may not break the tippet but you will straighten or break the hook.
Be mindful of this possibility as you use ever thicker and therefore stronger tippet materials on small flies. There is a limit to how thick and strong a tippet you can use.
There is a technology race between hook manufacturers and tippet makers. What I mean by that is, as tippets and hooks get thinner, the relative mass or amount of steel/nylon/fluorocarbon decreases exponentially. Hooks and tippets are both cylindrical. The mass of a cylinder varies with the SQUARE of the diameter/radius. So if a hook/tippet gets 10% thinner, it has lost 19% (1.0 - (0.9 X 0.9)) of its mass and therefore 19% of its strength. Tiny hooks get progressively weaker as the metal gets thinner and the same happens to tippet material. This balance of thinner and therefore weaker tippet material protects the hooks from breaking and bending open.
The technology of modern polymers has outpaced the technology of metallurgy in the last few years. Tippets are getting stronger and the steel used in hooks are staying much the same.
As you use thicker tippets with smaller hooks than is the usual recommendation, there will come a time when the you may not break the tippet but you will straighten or break the hook.
Be mindful of this possibility as you use ever thicker and therefore stronger tippet materials on small flies. There is a limit to how thick and strong a tippet you can use.
dillon
Well-known member
There is much good thoughtful and technical information in this thread. However, getting back to the op's situation and question, I surmise it may have been a strong river current that made it difficult to move thelarge trout. I know other rivers in your area where trout over 20 in are typically landed on sz 20 hooks and 6x. One must learn their tackles limits by pushing it to the limits. 6x is stronger than some may believe. A hook may straighten or a knot break before the tippet will. Experience and trial and error will provide the answers. If it were me, next time with a sz 20 fly, I'd try 5x and at least a 5 wt rod, maybe six and firmly put the screws to that big boy...
silver creek
Well-known member
Like PT, I never understood why a fly fisher would spend $$$ on a trip to fly fish a famous river and buy suboptimal tippet material to save a couple of bucks a spool. Drink one less beer a day and use that to spend up on the best tippet you can buy.
Then again, there are some mysteries in fly fishing that I have failed to understand and that is one of them. :frusty:
Then again, there are some mysteries in fly fishing that I have failed to understand and that is one of them. :frusty:
wildtigertrout
Well-known member
I fished the "Dream Stream" in Colorado last year during a morning's trico hatch. I used 5x tippet and my Sage VT2 9' 6 weight to fish size 24 trico spinners! Those trout get BIG in there. Here at home I fish the same flies with 6 or 7x tippet and my G. Loomis GLX Streamdance "Presentation" 8' 2 weight rod. I know you can hook a bigger fish now and then here but out there they were ALL big! I would have used 4x tippet but I could not get it through the hook eye.
dillon
Well-known member
Monofilament fishing line also has a shelf life so fresh tippet material should be purchased every year. Blood knots or others that are used to build or add on to leaders should also be checked for strength before each outing. It's surprising how easy they may break...
easttn_
Well-known member
For nymph fishing, lighter tippet will sink faster and have a more natural drift so I use 6x to 5x depending on the size of the hook eye. For dry fly fishing degreasing the tippet section will allow it to settle just below the surface and is much less visible so 5x or 4x is fine for dries
silver creek
Well-known member
Exactly. Small nymphs have relatively low mass and when combined with a thicker leader tippet will take longer to sink. Nymphs like Perigon nymphs are designed so the small patterns are mainly a bead on a hook and will sink with low mass by having a clear smooth UV resin coating to minimize the hydraulic drag of the sunken fly. Here is a video from Tactical Flyfisher:
https://news.orvis.com/fly-fishing/video-tie-pliva-perdigon-nymph
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkF4xR8g1y0