Changing line/leader sizes?

[samanich]

So far, I've been using one rod (5/6wt), one line (WF5) and one leader (9ft 4x) for all of my flies, because that's all I have. But, I'm beginning to see that this isn't a very good way of doing it because the same line/leader that can throw a larger streamer will probably not be able to delicately present a small dry. So, I was just wondering how people changed lines and leaders when you switch from fishing dries to streamers mid fishing session?

Do you have one reel loaded with a 5wt line with a 5x leader for small dries, but then have a spare spool with a 6wt line and 3x leader for when you switch to dries (numbers just for example)? Or do you just stay with the same line and just change out the leader?

I know there's more than one way to peel a banana, but I'm curious how the majority of people accomplish this. I'm still trying to get a handle on matching fly sizes with leaders and lines so this is all still a work in progress. In fact, I have some flies that I have no idea what size they actually are and haven't even gotten to the point yet where I can estimate a size. I just know "small" and "big" really.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Sam

 

[Ard]

With a 5 weight I fish 10 or 12 pound level leader and change to a tapered leader for dry fly fishing, same line. A good habit to adopt when you fish dries is to dress the line with a good cleaner / flotant product. Having that line floating high while attempting to lift it from the water with minimal disturbance is a step in the right direction.

 

[philly]

I use a furled leaders with both my 5 wgt and 6 wgt rods. I have different size leaders, some are for trout, others are for pan fish and bass. Given your situation, Ard's advice is spot on. A straight piece of fluorocarbon or mono, 8 to 12 lb test if you're fishing larger flies or popper for warm water fish, and a tapered leader for trout. With 5X you should be able to fish flies down to a size 20, though 6X or 7X is better suited when you get down that small. The only reason I could see for getting a spare spool for a 6 wgt line, in your case, would be to see if your rod casts better with the 5 wgt line or the 6 wgt line. When I started fly fishing all I had was a 6 wgt and until I learned how to tie my own leaders and eventually was introduced to furled leaders, I did exactly what he suggested.

 

[samanich]

I use a furled leaders with both my 5 wgt and 6 wgt rods. I have different size leaders, some are for trout, others are for pan fish and bass. Given your situation, Ard's advice is spot on. A straight piece of fluorocarbon or mono, 8 to 12 lb test if you're fishing larger flies or popper for warm water fish, and a tapered leader for trout. With 5X you should be able to fish flies down to a size 20, though 6X or 7X is better suited when you get down that small. The only reason I could see for getting a spare spool for a 6 wgt line, in your case, would be to see if your rod casts better with the 5 wgt line or the 6 wgt line. When I started fly fishing all I had was a 6 wgt and until I learned how to tie my own leaders and eventually was introduced to furled leaders, I did exactly what he suggested.

Okay, good to know. So, basically rather than changing spools/line, just change out the leader based on what you want.

In that case, would the only purpose of having a spare spool be to keep something like floating line on one and sinking on the other?

 

[silver creek]

So far, I've been using one rod (5/6wt), one line (WF5) and one leader (9ft 4x) for all of my flies, because that's all I have. But, I'm beginning to see that this isn't a very good way of doing it because the same line/leader that can throw a larger streamer will probably not be able to delicately present a small dry. So, I was just wondering how people changed lines and leaders when you switch from fishing dries to streamers mid fishing session?

Do you have one reel loaded with a 5wt line with a 5x leader for small dries, but then have a spare spool with a 6wt line and 3x leader for when you switch to dries (numbers just for example)? Or do you just stay with the same line and just change out the leader?

I know there's more than one way to peel a banana, but I'm curious how the majority of people accomplish this. I'm still trying to get a handle on matching fly sizes with leaders and lines so this is all still a work in progress. In fact, I have some flies that I have no idea what size they actually are and haven't even gotten to the point yet where I can estimate a size. I just know "small" and "big" really.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Sam

Read this:

tapered leader/tippet

Or you can use the search below:

Google

 

[samanich]

Read this:

tapered leader/tippet

Or you can use the search below:

Google

Hmm, not really what my question was but I read through your post (and the posts you linked to within that post) and its all very good info. However, opens up a whole new set of questions from me. From this, I take it that you recommend that one ties their own leaders using tippet and Maxima Chameleon leader (I don't know if I just missed it, but why that brand specifically?).

What's the advantage to doing this rather than using knotless leaders? I know you say that you can easily switch between dry and nymphing setups, but it seems like it would actually be easier (or at least as easy) to switch out the whole fabricated leader.

Don't take it that I'm trying to say you're wrong, because I know you have a lot more knowledge on this subject than I do, but I'm curious why this is advocated. I do want to start tying my own leaders because it seems more cost effective, and your write-up definitely demystified the process a good bit.

So, let me get this straight. To fish a size 10 streamer with a 6wt rod... I would tie 5ft of 25lbs test directly to the fly line, then 1ft of 12lbs test for the transition, then say 2 feet of 3x tippet onto that? Then, if I want to switch and fish a #18 dry, I would undo the loop-to-loop connection between the tippet and the transition and add a 3ft section 6x tippet?

And finally... am I correct in thinking that the Maxima Chameleon is NOT tippet material? It is not clear(don't know if this actually matters), and the lbs test strength for the diameter line is different than the standard tippet diameter/strength I see.

Okay, actually finally now. You said in one of your posts that it is important to use a butt material that is similar in diameter to your fly line tip. I'm assuming then that the tip for these weight fly lines is close to the 0.02" diameter of the 25lbs Maxima line. Where do I find information on fly line diameters so I would know what size Maxima to use on my 3wt line?

Sorry for all the questions, this just got me very curious. Thanks for all the great information.

 

[samanich]

Done more research into this and I think I can answer some of my own questions now. After reading more about it, I think I do want to go down the path of getting butt and tippet material separately and tying my own leaders because it really does seem more flexible with what all you can do and will be cheaper in the long run. This wasn't really even on my radar until you brought it up, but thank you.

Maxima Chameleon is not tippet. That was an easy one. And am I correct in thinking the reason you recommend this brand is because it is with this line that your diameter measurements are based?

Why do you say to use a tippet ring rather than just using a perfection loop? Is there any difference?

And by comparing fly line diameter and the diameter of the Chameleon mono, I think a 20lb test would be the correct size for the butt end of my 3wt line. Do you agree? And I should probably use 10lb test as the transition line, but the measurements are so close to the 12lb, I bet I could save myself the extra reel and just use 12lb as the transition for both my 6wt and 3wt rod.

Is this all sounding correct?

I'm glad I didn't go out buying tapered leaders already. I have a single leader for each of my lines and was about to order a bunch when I started looking further into all of this. And, I ended up getting a better understanding of what tippet/leader to use with what size fly and in what situation, so it's been immensely helpful. But, more than anything, all of this reading about fly fishing has just made me want to go out and fish.

 

[silver creek]

I suggested your read this post:

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-lines/369158-tapered-leader-tippet.html#post818980

It does NOT say that building your leader is better than buying a pre-made leader. My post gave you both options, and YOU decide what is best for you. What it described and what you asked about was tailoring the leader you have to a new fly that is larger or smaller than the one you are using. It also gave you the option of building leaders.

As to why the tippet ring - a tippet ring allows you to swap or replace tippet material without shortening the base leader.

A more complete discussion of leaders should also mention the third option to a factory leader or tying your own, which is a furled leader that you can get from one of our members.

Cutthroat Furled Leaders | Braided Leaders | Fly Fishing |

Furled leaders come with a tippet ring. I do not use furled leaders but plenty of fly fishers swear by them.

Finally a fourth option is braided leaders, which you can get from Orvis and they also cast very well.

Both furled and braided leaders are multi-filaments and tend to hold water and spray water when picked up and cast. So a false cast to to the side to clear the water is need when fishing to spooky fish eating dries. Regardless, many still use them because they cast so well.

I use standard mono leaders because I have used them for 40 years and have learned how to modify them on the river for what I want to do. With a furled or braided leader, you cannot modify the base leader - it is what it is and you change out the tippet and you buy longer or shorter base leaders and swap them out. They are more expensive than swapping out a standard leader.

This is how I explain leaders and tippets to beginners.

The function of a leader is to transmit the energy of the cast from the fly line to the fly so as to deliver the fly accurately. The leader functions as the continuation of the fly line. It then becomes obvious that the diameter of butt section of the leader should be a close match to the diameter of the tip of the fly line. For a 5/6 fly line it should be in the range of 0.021" to 0.019" diameter.

The tippet is the thinnest section of the leader that is on the end opposite the fly line. It is the level end section of leader that is attached to the fly.

Tippets diameters are by “X” sizes where X = 0.011” - (tippet diameter). So a 0.06” diameter tippet is 0.011 - 0.006 = 5X. This is the “Rule of 11” The X size of the diameter of the tippet will equal 11.

The function of the tippet is to deliver the fly, but it's main function for dry flies is to eliminate drag. These two functions are opposites. To deliver the fly most accurately, the tippet must land straight; but to eliminate drag, the tippet must introduce slack. We control accuracy vs slack by controlling the tippet length, diameter, and stiffness. The shorter, thicker and stiffer the tippet the more accurate the tippet; the longer, thinner, and limber the tippet, the greater drag free drift.

One does not choose the leader or tippet according the rod weight but according to the size, weight, and air resistance of the fly. We are choosing the leader and tippet according to how difficult the fly is to cast. The more difficult the fly is to cast, the stiffer, shorter, and thicker the leader and tippet. So match the leader to the fly and not the rod.

The tippet size The "X" size of the tippet varies with the size and wind resistance of the fly. The fly size in terms of hook size is used as a guide for choosing the tippet size. Then consider the weight and the air resistance of the fly to go up or down a tippet size.

There are two "rules" for choosing the correct tippet size for a given hook size. They are the rule of 4 and the rule of 3. The rule of 4 is for beginners and the rule of 3 is for intermediate to advanced casters. You divide the hook size by either 4 or 3 to get the tippet "X" size. The rule of 4 results in a thicker tippet than the rule of 3, and beginning fly fisher needs a thicker tippet than an advanced caster to deliver the fly as accurately.

Example: For a size 16 fly, the beginner would use a 16/4 (rule of 4) or 4X tippet and the advanced caster would use a 16/3 (rule of 3) or 5x tippet.

For a beginner, the length of the leader should be about the length of the fly rod. The is because a longer rod give the caster more leverage and it is easier to cast a longer leader with a longer rod. Conversely, a shorter rod is less able to extend a long leader. So start with a leader length about the same length as the rod and then lengthen it as your casting gets better.

Most commercial leaders are built on the 60% butt - 20% transition - 20% tippet formula. You can use this 60/20/20 formula to decide when to add new tippet to a worn leader. Using this "rule" a 9 ft leader for a 9 ft rod would have a 22" tippet. Use it to calculate the probable length of the tippet for your leader.

Realize that commercial leaders have to work for beginners as well as experts, but experts can cast a longer tippet section with accuracy. So I recommend that as beginners become better casters, they lengthen the tippet. Using the 20% tippet rule for a 9 ft leader, I tell beginners to start with a 22" rule of 4 tippet, then as they get better, lengthen it to a 26" and then a 30" rule of 4 tippet. Then switch to a rule of 3 tippet and gradually lengthen that to 30". As they become better casters, the tippet gets longer, then thinner and longer.

Everything starts with the fly we need to cast. Fly selection determines leader and tippet size; and also determines the increasing weight of fly rods that are needed to cast that fly as fly size increases. This is actually no different than spin fishing in which the weight and size of the lure determines the line, rod and reel that are used to fish that lure.

Read the article below for more information:

http://www.flyfisherman.com/how-to/modify-your-fly-leader/#ixzz4DjWseTq8

 

[samanich]

I suggested your read this post:

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-lines/369158-tapered-leader-tippet.html#post818980

It does NOT say that building your leader is better than buying a pre-made leader. My post gave you both options, and YOU decide what is best for you. What it described and what you asked about was tailoring the leader you have to a new fly that is larger or smaller than the one you are using. It also gave you the option of building leaders.

As to why the tippet ring - a tippet ring allows you to swap or replace tippet material without shortening the base leader.

A more complete discussion of leaders should also mention the third option to a factory leader or tying your own, which is a furled leader that you can get from one of our members.

Cutthroat Furled Leaders | Braided Leaders | Fly Fishing |

Furled leaders come with a tippet ring. I do not use furled leaders but plenty of fly fishers swear by them.

Finally a fourth option is braided leaders, which you can get from Orvis and they also cast very well.

Both furled and braided leaders are multi-filaments and tend to hold water and spray water when picked up and cast. So a false cast to to the side to clear the water is need when fishing to spooky fish eating dries. Regardless, many still use them because they cast so well.

I use standard mono leaders because I have used them for 40 years and have learned how to modify them on the river for what I want to do. With a furled or braided leader, you cannot modify the base leader - it is what it is and you change out the tippet and you buy longer or shorter base leaders and swap them out. They are more expensive than swapping out a standard leader.

This is how I explain leaders and tippets to beginners.

The function of a leader is to transmit the energy of the cast from the fly line to the fly so as to deliver the fly accurately. The leader functions as the continuation of the fly line. It then becomes obvious that the diameter of butt section of the leader should be a close match to the diameter of the tip of the fly line. For a 5/6 fly line it should be in the range of 0.021" to 0.019" diameter.

The tippet is the thinnest section of the leader that is on the end opposite the fly line. It is the level end section of leader that is attached to the fly.

Tippets diameters are by “X” sizes where X = 0.011” - (tippet diameter). So a 0.06” diameter tippet is 0.011 - 0.006 = 5X. This is the “Rule of 11” The X size of the diameter of the tippet will equal 11.

The function of the tippet is to deliver the fly, but it's main function for dry flies is to eliminate drag. These two functions are opposites. To deliver the fly most accurately, the tippet must land straight; but to eliminate drag, the tippet must introduce slack. We control accuracy vs slack by controlling the tippet length, diameter, and stiffness. The shorter, thicker and stiffer the tippet the more accurate the tippet; the longer, thinner, and limber the tippet, the greater drag free drift.

One does not choose the leader or tippet according the rod weight but according to the size, weight, and air resistance of the fly. We are choosing the leader and tippet according to how difficult the fly is to cast. The more difficult the fly is to cast, the stiffer, shorter, and thicker the leader and tippet. So match the leader to the fly and not the rod.

The tippet size The "X" size of the tippet varies with the size and wind resistance of the fly. The fly size in terms of hook size is used as a guide for choosing the tippet size. Then consider the weight and the air resistance of the fly to go up or down a tippet size.

There are two "rules" for choosing the correct tippet size for a given hook size. They are the rule of 4 and the rule of 3. The rule of 4 is for beginners and the rule of 3 is for intermediate to advanced casters. You divide the hook size by either 4 or 3 to get the tippet "X" size. The rule of 4 results in a thicker tippet than the rule of 3, and beginning fly fisher needs a thicker tippet than an advanced caster to deliver the fly as accurately.

Example: For a size 16 fly, the beginner would use a 16/4 (rule of 4) or 4X tippet and the advanced caster would use a 16/3 (rule of 3) or 5x tippet.

For a beginner, the length of the leader should be about the length of the fly rod. The is because a longer rod give the caster more leverage and it is easier to cast a longer leader with a longer rod. Conversely, a shorter rod is less able to extend a long leader. So start with a leader length about the same length as the rod and then lengthen it as your casting gets better.

Most commercial leaders are built on the 60% butt - 20% transition - 20% tippet formula. You can use this 60/20/20 formula to decide when to add new tippet to a worn leader. Using this "rule" a 9 ft leader for a 9 ft rod would have a 22" tippet. Use it to calculate the probable length of the tippet for your leader.

Realize that commercial leaders have to work for beginners as well as experts, but experts can cast a longer tippet section with accuracy. So I recommend that as beginners become better casters, they lengthen the tippet. Using the 20% tippet rule for a 9 ft leader, I tell beginners to start with a 22" rule of 4 tippet, then as they get better, lengthen it to a 26" and then a 30" rule of 4 tippet. Then switch to a rule of 3 tippet and gradually lengthen that to 30". As they become better casters, the tippet gets longer, then thinner and longer.

Everything starts with the fly we need to cast. Fly selection determines leader and tippet size; and also determines the increasing weight of fly rods that are needed to cast that fly as fly size increases. This is actually no different than spin fishing in which the weight and size of the lure determines the line, rod and reel that are used to fish that lure.

Read the article below for more information:

http://www.flyfisherman.com/how-to/modify-your-fly-leader/#ixzz4DjWseTq8

Again, more great info. Thank you. I think I'm getting more of a handle on it.

It seems like I can get the butt material and tippets I need for about the same cost as buying 1x-5x tapered leaders, so I think I'll go that route because I'm sure those spools of tippet last a very long time. However, was I correct in thinking that for a 3wt line I should probably use the 20lb line as the butt material rather than the 25lb you suggest for 4-6wt line?

I'm beginning to understand my beginner casting woes. Trying to throw a size 8 popper on a 4x leader was not setting me up for success. I just didn't know any better. Leaders and tippets were not at the forefront of my mind. Hopefully I'll have more success next time out!

 

[silver creek]

Again, more great info. Thank you. I think I'm getting more of a handle on it.

It seems like I can get the butt material and tippets I need for about the same cost as buying 1x-5x tapered leaders, so I think I'll go that route because I'm sure those spools of tippet last a very long time. However, was I correct in thinking that for a 3wt line I should probably use the 20lb line as the butt material rather than the 25lb you suggest for 4-6wt line?

I'm beginning to understand my beginner casting woes. Trying to throw a size 8 popper on a 4x leader was not setting me up for success. I just didn't know any better. Leaders and tippets were not at the forefront of my mind. Hopefully I'll have more success next time out!

Here is a table of Maxima Chameleon diameters for the various strengths. I agree with the 20 lb test.

 

[samanich]

Here is a table of Maxima Chameleon diameters for the various strengths. I agree with the 20 lb test.

Another question... to alter leader length, would you change the length of the butt end, the tippet, or does it not really matter?

 

[silver creek]

Another question... to alter leader length, would you change the length of the butt end, the tippet, or does it not really matter?

1. To lengthen or shorten the leader and not change the dynamics of the tippet, you lengthen or shorten the butt section. For example, you have a 9 ft leader with 2 feet of tippet. You want to lengthen the leader to 15 feet with 2 feet of tippet. You add 6 feet of butt section.

2. To modify leader so it will produce a longer drag free drift you change the tippet which is the most important of leader for reducing drag. You lengthen the tippet or reduce the tippet diameter, or both. For example, you find that the fly is dragging too soon with a 9 foot leader with 2 feet of tippet. (2a) - You add another foot of tippet so the tippet is 3 feet long and the leader then becomes a 10 foot leader. (2b) - Or you reduce the diameter of the tippet so it is more limp. (2c) Or you both lengthen the tippet and reduce the diameter.

3. Sometimes you have to do both. When fishing Phd water like Silver Creek, Idaho you take your 9 foot leader and make it a 15 foot leader with 5 feet of tippet so you add both butt and tippet material.

Its all logical and not rocket science.

 

[Unknownflyman]

Silvercreek has excellent posts again.

I personally only change lines when I use exceptionally large streamers or bass bugs otherwise my standard WF or DT lines cover the trout range for me.

Yes I do modify my leaders for the task at hand, each case individual for length and size according to the presentation type and size.

For some reason where I fish for large and small game the leader has everything to do with catching fish or watching refusal types all day.

Also a big factor on why two guys fishing the same pattern, one has lots of action and the other has little.

Oversized line and leaders do not fare well here for wild fish of any species. I use just enough to get the job done for the size of fish and type.

The aspects of presentation have taken me years to learn, it’s a journey worth taking and still a deeper well, always learning.

Regards, UF

 

[samanich]

For some reason where I fish for large and small game the leader has everything to do with catching fish or watching refusal types all day.

Once again, looking like leader choice is a much bigger deal than I thought when first starting out. Looks like it's time to go back and read those chapters of the books.

 

[samanich]

Hey Silver,

Reading back over this and other posts you linked to, I have another question. Why complicate things further for changing to a nymphing rig? Say you're fishing in 4 feet of water with a size 16 nymph. Why couldn't you just add 5 feet of 4x tippet to the end of your taper section then add an indicator where the taper and butt section meet (giving 6ft between indicator and nymph)?

It could just be that I'm missing something.

 

[bigjim5589]

Samanich, you've gotten some excellent replies here. Silver Creek always provides great information! Your "outfit" is a system, but one that needs some slight adjustments, particularly with regard to fly sizes. I generally follow a rule of thumb that the larger I go with fly size the heavier & shorter I usually have to go with tippets & leader length. Tippet is part of the leader. For example, if you're casting size 18 dry flies, and using 6X tippets & a total leader length of 12', and decide to switch to a size 4 streamer, it's highly likely, that leader & tippet combination will be too long and way too light to efficiently transfer casting energy for that larger, heavier size 4 streamer fly. So, the answer is to use a shorter leader & heavier tippet. It may mean you'll have to go with an entirely different leader, one that has a heavier butt section.

The fact is, there is no "standard", that you can just "plug in". Sometimes experience & trial & error will tell you what you need to do, but there can be more than one way to accomplish the same thing. Just as an example, another angler may prefer a 9' leader and 5X tippets when fishing tiny dry flies, and as long as that works, both examples I cited are correct. However, if the second angler wishes to also switch to a #4 streamer, an adjustment to the leader & tippet would still have to be made.

Fly "size" and line weight is what determines the leader & tippet to use. On a 5 wt, it would serve no good purpose to use a leader designed for a 12 wt line, just as it would not if the leader you are using with your 5 wt was to be used with a 12 wt. Everything has to fit & work together.

 

[clouserguyky]

Lot's of great info in this thread. I'd add to the OP, there are lots of versatile leader formulas out there that allow you to fish different rigs with minimal changes on mid-sized rods (4-6 weight). I'll PM you my favorite one.

 

[clsmith131]

Good replies on this thread.
I tend to keep it simple. I start with a 4x tapered leader, or 5x if I'm going to shorten it. I tie on a tippet ring, then tippet appropriate to the fly size with a length that I can manage. You want to size your leader as heavy or heavier than your tippet so that you can turn it over, and also to control your breakage in the event of a snag. If you'r jumping more than two sizes in tippet, you'll want to tie in another section of tippet, for example: if you have a 4x leader and want to use 7x or 8x tippet, you would want a transitional section of 6x. I try to limit the knots on my leaders because every knot weakens the system-even the best, perfectly tied one. I fish mostly streamers or tandem indicator rigs, with only the occasional dry. I pretty much only use tippet from 4x to 6x, because the really fine stuff is just frustrating. (With 8x, you need perfect knots, easy hook sets, no underwater roots/obstructions, and a lot of luck or in the case of others...skill... to land fish) As for changing the tapered leader, I rarely do. Those things are like gold!

 

[smoke33]

Lot's of great info in this thread. I'd add to the OP, there are lots of versatile leader formulas out there that allow you to fish different rigs with minimal changes on mid-sized rods (4-6 weight). I'll PM you my favorite one.

Can you post it here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jonbo]

Hey Silver,

Reading back over this and other posts you linked to, I have another question. Why complicate things further for changing to a nymphing rig? Say you're fishing in 4 feet of water with a size 16 nymph. Why couldn't you just add 5 feet of 4x tippet to the end of your taper section then add an indicator where the taper and butt section meet (giving 6ft between indicator and nymph)?

It could just be that I'm missing something.

Here's what I do, if anyone cares. I generally use manufactured tapered leaders, usually in 3x. To this I add a tippet ring. Then I'll typically tie 4x or 5x tippet to that. Then I never have to touch the leader again. It lasts an entire fishing season, no problem. With my system the leaders last long enough that if I bought my own leader constructing materials I'd end up throwing most of it away before I used it due to age. I use this for nearly everything except streamers.

For my streamer leader I run about 5 ft of MaxCham 25#. Blood knotted to this, 18" of the same in 12#. Then, a tippet ring. Then a couple of feet of 2x tippet. I don't know why, but I feel I need some distance between the line and streamer, and a little of clear tippet beween the brown MaxCham and the streamer to not spook the fish. This works for my 6 wt and 5 wt rods for shallow streams. When I'm in deeper water, for my 5 wt I have one of those sinking leaders you can buy. For my 6 wt rod I bought a second spool and put a slow sinking line on it.

All my line to leader connections are loop to loop. All my leader to tippet connections are made via tippet ring.