I recently got back into the sport after a long hiatus. I fished dries and some streamers a lot between the age of 12 and 15. Before that I caught probably a thousand or more bass on lures as a wee punk. So there's some background, but coming in from a more mature, informed perspective has been interesting. I've been focusing entirely on nymphing, and have had some good results on more western style rigs. I decided to see what all the fuss was about the euro nymph setup, went and bought Maxima chameleon from 20# to 10#, sighter, fluoro, and built some 20' leaders. I can't seem to wrap my head around using these on the stream, it's like you're throwing away all of the control and easy casting provided by the fly line in order to have a sloppy, wild, and difficult to see flail on the end of your line. Not to mention how much more difficult it is for line to pass in and out of the rod. Tonight I gave up after a horrendous tangle on the end of my rod, and I think I'm going to build some shorter leaders from mono. Am I just not getting it? Or is there some agreement?
Beginner's impression of long euro nymph setups
- Thread starter Shwaggy
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when you are learning keep it as simple as you can. at first it all seems strange but if you keep at it , it will all fall into place and you will be rewarded with catching a lot of fish. there is a lot of help on u tube and other sites. I have gone back and forth with leaders and line many times , always learning a better way for me to do it. that is part of the fun figuring it all out , also there is no one right way but many right ways.your time on the water is not only fishing but a learning experience HAVE FUN
silver creek
Well-known member
I have 2 questions;
1. Are you casting with a rod designed for euronymphing or are you using a standard rod like a 9 ft 5 wt?
2. Have you looked at the techniques for casting these long leaders?
The best advice I can give anyone wanting to learn euro nymphing is to get a copy of “Modern Nymphing “ by Devin Olsen and Lance Egan. It is a great video. George Daniels book Dynamic Nymphing is a great approach to nymphing as a system that includes euro style nymphing.
patrick62
Well-known member
Think of it as more of a controlled lob than a standard cast. That helped me.
knotjoe
Well-known member
3. What weight are you using on the end of the tippet? Such as 2.0mm tungsten beadhead, split shot, etc.
4. With Maxima Chameleon, are you stretching it a bit prior casting to alleviate the coil/memory?
silver creek
Well-known member
JasonTX
Well-known member
First of all, the two videos mentioned are well produced with awesome information.
Based on the frustration that you’re experiencing (“difficulty with line going in and out”) it sounds to me like you may be trying to tightline at the same kind of distance that you would throw a nymph rig with “traditional” North American technique. That’s not going to happen with a euro set up. No ability or need to shoot line. It’s very up close and personal with the run that you’re working. Close enough to keep the line tight enough to feel a nymph bounce on a rock or a trout’s jaw! Don’t give it up, just do some education. It’s rewarding! Cheers!
Based on the frustration that you’re experiencing (“difficulty with line going in and out”) it sounds to me like you may be trying to tightline at the same kind of distance that you would throw a nymph rig with “traditional” North American technique. That’s not going to happen with a euro set up. No ability or need to shoot line. It’s very up close and personal with the run that you’re working. Close enough to keep the line tight enough to feel a nymph bounce on a rock or a trout’s jaw! Don’t give it up, just do some education. It’s rewarding! Cheers!
Your replies have all been quite interesting, so thanks.
That's what I'm having a hard time appreciating. Why sacrifice the weighted line that provides so much control? I haven't noticed any difference in the efficacy of the leader in actually catching fish between a 20' euro leader and a 9' tapered with a sighter tied in. Is it that this technique is more suited to large open rivers, and the tight streams with a lot of features and overgrowth that I'm fishing locally aren't the best places for it?
knotjoe
Well-known member
Precision of presentation and depending on method, better tactile/bite detection with lighter material like 20lb mono as opposed to flyline. Easier to hold off the water at distance, too.
As to preferences, I have to agree a bit with you there and actually prefer flyline or hybrid systems with heavier braid simply because I can actually flycast with them and deliver lighter nymphs further without excessive flippin’ & pitchin’ style techniques or weights used in euro-style. Like you, I appreciate at least a little bit of weight in the line and the options and control it provides.
It all works, some methods are just more compelling than others and I’ll give up a bit of catch rate in favor of pleasure and whim. Do realize that although these techniques have taken the FFing world by storm and enjoy great interest right now, it may not be so earth shaking for you. Your stated experience involves light spinning tackle, much of this “fish at your feet” and hyper sensitive bite detection with thin lines is nothing new. One can indeed catch more in many scenarios due to stated advantages, but sometimes not due to limits on distance with euro nymphing.
You simply want to flyfish these days and more in the casting form. Effectiveness, in some cases, is counted in smiles and satisfaction before catch rates come into the equation.
Dude, I feel your pain! No, actually, I've been experiencing a lot of the same frustrations. I too have attempted to cast with a 26' MaxCham-type leader. About all I can do is swing it around like a cat toy. The term "cast", that's just a joke. Okay! I can kind of snap my rig overhead and get it to drop straight down in the water, that "tuck cast" thingy they talk about. Not with any accuracy, mind you. That's about it. And, like you I guess, I haven't really experienced any great improvement in my catch rate using this method. It's been about the same as when I fish with a bobber, but more frustrating. Man, I'm not asking the world. I just want to be able to fish about 18 feet away as well as directly in front of myself.
Three things have kept me from giving up on the whole idea. One is that guys swear you can cast the long euro-leader some. I can believe that in that I'm a pretty mediocre caster. I'm not convinced that just because I haven't been able to, that it can't be done. I can't really say yet that I've given the long leader the old college try. I'll have to practice some more. Another is that so many swear by it as being really productive. I don't think they are all lying. A third, I watched a kid on the junior national team pull about 6 fish out of a couple of pockets in about 5 minutes, tops. I would have fished those same pockets for about 45 minutes with an indicator and PT and probably caught one. Oh! A 4th. I really don't like bobber fishing. I only do it because it's been the most productive method for me, so far.
So, genius that I am, having had no luck with the tight-line/euro-method, so far, I've gone all in, doubled down. I've gone and purchased a 10', 3 wt, Echo Shadow II, a fairly dedicated euro-rod. I've also bought the extension kit they sell where you can extend it to 11'. What I have been using is a 10', 4 wt TFO BVK, a rod that fishes well but I don't think is particularly designed to "Euro". Okay, I've bet a half a paycheck or something that, with determination, I will be able to cast this thing enough to keep from getting completely frustrated with it and snapping it like it was a bad pitching wedge (Oh, no. I've never really done that. Wipe that from your mind.). Now, I'm going to run Rio Grand line on this. They say to over-line this rod a bit if you run regular line on it and that's what Rio Grand is supposed to do, so when I saw some on sale for about 30% off, I snapped it up.
Now, whenever I want to tight-line I'll run the 26' leader. When I want to swing a wet or dry-dropper fish or something, I'll just swap to a regular old 7' tapered leader and tippet-ring set up and keep going. I'm pretty adept at swapping out leaders while on the river, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I have no idea how the extension kit's going to work out. Taking a flier on that.
Oh, the long leader's for this: Regular fly-line becomes a problem while tight-lining. The trouble is that a lot of your fishing is so close to you that you end up with the line/leader junction only part way up your guides or barely out the tip. In that situation the heavy line tends to sag down between the reel and first guide and mess up your whole set-up. I've found this to be true. So guys either run the super-long leader to keep all the line on the rod while they tight-line, only having leader in the guides -this will not cause the problem above- or they use "euro"-line which, I understand is not much heavier than a mono leader. I get the idea it doesn't cast much better either. I'm going with regular fly WF fly-line + a long leader, so I can swap out and cast regularly -when I want to-. I'm just making the bet that getting a dedicated euro-nymphing rod I will be able to throw 18-20 feet when I want. That's ALL I ASK -18-20 FEET. THAT'S ALL I ASK. I think I can do it.
Three things have kept me from giving up on the whole idea. One is that guys swear you can cast the long euro-leader some. I can believe that in that I'm a pretty mediocre caster. I'm not convinced that just because I haven't been able to, that it can't be done. I can't really say yet that I've given the long leader the old college try. I'll have to practice some more. Another is that so many swear by it as being really productive. I don't think they are all lying. A third, I watched a kid on the junior national team pull about 6 fish out of a couple of pockets in about 5 minutes, tops. I would have fished those same pockets for about 45 minutes with an indicator and PT and probably caught one. Oh! A 4th. I really don't like bobber fishing. I only do it because it's been the most productive method for me, so far.
So, genius that I am, having had no luck with the tight-line/euro-method, so far, I've gone all in, doubled down. I've gone and purchased a 10', 3 wt, Echo Shadow II, a fairly dedicated euro-rod. I've also bought the extension kit they sell where you can extend it to 11'. What I have been using is a 10', 4 wt TFO BVK, a rod that fishes well but I don't think is particularly designed to "Euro". Okay, I've bet a half a paycheck or something that, with determination, I will be able to cast this thing enough to keep from getting completely frustrated with it and snapping it like it was a bad pitching wedge (Oh, no. I've never really done that. Wipe that from your mind.). Now, I'm going to run Rio Grand line on this. They say to over-line this rod a bit if you run regular line on it and that's what Rio Grand is supposed to do, so when I saw some on sale for about 30% off, I snapped it up.
Now, whenever I want to tight-line I'll run the 26' leader. When I want to swing a wet or dry-dropper fish or something, I'll just swap to a regular old 7' tapered leader and tippet-ring set up and keep going. I'm pretty adept at swapping out leaders while on the river, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I have no idea how the extension kit's going to work out. Taking a flier on that.
Oh, the long leader's for this: Regular fly-line becomes a problem while tight-lining. The trouble is that a lot of your fishing is so close to you that you end up with the line/leader junction only part way up your guides or barely out the tip. In that situation the heavy line tends to sag down between the reel and first guide and mess up your whole set-up. I've found this to be true. So guys either run the super-long leader to keep all the line on the rod while they tight-line, only having leader in the guides -this will not cause the problem above- or they use "euro"-line which, I understand is not much heavier than a mono leader. I get the idea it doesn't cast much better either. I'm going with regular fly WF fly-line + a long leader, so I can swap out and cast regularly -when I want to-. I'm just making the bet that getting a dedicated euro-nymphing rod I will be able to throw 18-20 feet when I want. That's ALL I ASK -18-20 FEET. THAT'S ALL I ASK. I think I can do it.
silver creek
Well-known member
One problem is that you are using a 9 ft 5 wt rod. Most Eurorods are 10 to 11 ft 3 wt rods which are designed to cast the long leaders. You can't really complain that it does not work when you are not using the equipment you need to euronymph with long leaders.
What I suggest is that you study the best euronymphing teaching videos that I have seen and that is MODERN NYMPHING: EUROPEAN INSPIRED TECHNIQUES DVD (FEATURING DEVIN OLSEN AND LANCE EGAN). Devin Olsen and Lance Egan are both on Team USA and both won personal medals at the world championships. Devin won bronze in 2015 and Lance won Bronze in 2016. Their followup video was released a couple of months ago and that is the one I recommended for correcting casting errors, MODERN NYMPHING ELEVATED: BEYOND THE BASICS DVD. But you need look at both videos; seriously, these are the 2 best videos on euronymphing.
Watch Modern Nymphing - European Inspired Techniques Online | Vimeo On Demand on Vimeo
Watch Modern Nymphing Elevated - Beyond the Basics Online | Vimeo On Demand on Vimeo
Tactical Flyfisher is Devin's site and this is his blog:
http://www.tacticalflyfisher.com/blog/
Heres some reading for you . I thought this man was crazy til I actually started to fish this way .
The Mono Rig | Troutbitten
The Mono Rig | Troutbitten
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That Troutbitten feller's getting a lot of run. I see references to him all over. I know at least one guy who's fishing all mono on his euro-rod. A question, jangles: In your experience, can you actually fish other methods such as dry, dry-dropper, emergers, streamers while running straight mono on a euro-nymph rod? Is it simply a matter of getting used to casting with all mono? If that's the case, it certainly makes a lot of things simpler. Thanks!
Silver: It was with chagrin that I read your post,but thanks. I just ordered from them, and forgot to order the DVD. Dad-BURN-IT! But thanks. I mean to get it... one of these days.
Silver: It was with chagrin that I read your post,but thanks. I just ordered from them, and forgot to order the DVD. Dad-BURN-IT! But thanks. I mean to get it... one of these days.
I'm not a dry fly guy but it's really picked my streamer and nymph game up . I'll give it a try next month in Montana , let you know ifn I remember .
silver creek
Well-known member
Part of the problem is the 9 ft 5 wt rod. Euronymphing rods are 10 feet and longer and usually 3 wts. You rod compared to the rods designed to cast long leaders is too stiff and too short.
Here is what Devin Olsen has to say on the subject of rod length and Euro-nymphing.
"I'm often asked about the pros and cons of longer and shorter rods for Euro-nymphing. There are plenty of points to consider for such a list but one of the main considerations is reach. The reason is simple, Euro-nymphing is a relatively short distance presentation technique and is often done to the side of a trout instead of downstream in the blind spot behind a trout's vision. This can lead to spooked trout from approaches that signal you are a danger to fish.... So how do you affect your visible presence in relation to the trout? There are two ways: 1. Obtain a lower profile by crouching or kneeling. 2. Fish further away.
While it is pretty common to see competitive anglers fishing from their knees as they carefully work their beat, it's pretty uncommon to see anglers using this approach if you go visit a popular trout stream. For the everyday angler, it is more common to fish further away to try and stay invisible or less threatening to the fish. This isn't difficult when fishing an indicator nymphing rig because you can cast a few feet further, though the longer line increases the difficulty of maintaining a quality drift. When Euro-nymphing, I see many anglers approach holding lies too closely without first thinking how they can stay out of clear sight of the fish. One way they would be able to stay further away and maintain a quality drift is by fishing a longer rod, which is one of the reasons why you see most Euro-nymphing rods starting at 10' in length."
The table below and the illustration are from Devin's Article. Although, Devin's Article does not mention plane geometry, the fact is that the extra reach is MAGNIFIED by the fact that the the fishable area grows by the distance squared as per the area of a circle A=πr2. For example a 10 foot cast can fish an area of 3.14 X 10 X 10 = 314 square feet. But a 11 foot cast can fish an area of 3.14 X 11 X 11 = 380 square feet which is about 20% larger. So extra reach is very very important because it it disproportionately increases the fishable area because the distance is squared.
Here is Devin's Article - ROD LENGTH AND REACH: A TRIGONOMETRY PERSPECTIVE
Devin's article addresses only rod length. The problem is compounded if the the shorter rod is not even designed to cast the lighter euronymphing rigs.
clouserguyky
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I often fish a similar rig to what is detailed on Troutbitten on a 9'6" 5 weight rod and it works great. You lose some sensitivity and reach compared to a 10' 3 weight competition style rod for sure. But you gain immense versatility in being able to still fish streamers and dry flies effectively at any distance. Any given day of the year really, I'll fish streamers, nymphs, and dries on the same river throughout the day. For example, I'll start with streamers in the morning, nymph throughout the day, and fish dries in the evening before switching back to streamers for dusk. Instead of bringing a 10' 3 weight for nymphs and a 9' 5 or 6 weight for streamers and dries, I bring my 9'6" 5 weight which doesn't do anything perfectly, but does everything well. I also still fish suspenders/indicators a lot and the 5 weight is a lot better for that than any competition style rod I've used.
So if you are planning on ONLY tightline nymphing, you're best bet is to go longer and lighter for all the reasons detailed in silvercreeks post, plus the added sensitivity. I've fished competition rods a bit, and you can't find a better rod for tightlining than the euro-specific rods. The long, light, competition rods will cast light nymphing rigs better on long mono leaders. But if you want to be able to fish all other methods, you can make your 9' 5 weight work, as I have with my 9'6" 5 weight. The trade-off for me is worth it, because my waters demand other tactics than nymphing quite often. In addition, I focus more on the sighter while tightlining than on feeling the take anyway, so the 5 weight works for me. The biggest issue you'll face is the length of the rod forcing you to wade closer to the fish when tightlining, risking spooking them. Most of the time 9'6" is enough length for me on my streams, but I do find myself wishing I had a 10 footer every once in a while.
If I were to buy another rod for my streams, I think it'd be a 10' 4 weight. I would still choose a traditional tapered rod over a competition style rod, but only because I fish other methods so often.
el jefe
Well-known member
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!! That is exactly what I am thinking about. A fishing buddy got a 1004 Radian, and has since put his 3100 ESN away. He says he can tight line almost as well with the Radian, and do a whole lot more with it, to boot. I sold my own ESN, and I have cooled on the idea of these noodly Euro rods. A long, normally tapered trout rod with a more traditional tip might be the cat's meow.
clouserguyky
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I certainly think so. I think the only time a competition style rod has an advantage is in competition. And I'm not the only one. I corresponded with George Daniel a few months ago and he mentioned his go to rod at the time was his 10' 4 weight Recon, which replaced a 10' 5 weight H2, which I think he's replaced with the 10' 4 weight H3F since then. He said he really only used competition style rods while competing, which made a lot of sense to me.
el jefe
Well-known member
That's good info to know, thanks for passing that along.
I'm not really sure what the noodly tip gets you. I've heard it's more "sensitive", but I've found it bounces so darn much that it send a lot of false signals, and I can't separate the noise from the take. The tip reacts too much to current, even.