A Very Tricky Topic to Address;

[Ard]

The World Wide Web or www as it's known, Google, the way we search. I'd bet a large number of our membership found this forum via a search engine and you had entered a key word or phrase. The results included this forum and I'd bet there was a thread containing your key word search info. That's how the net works and I've noticed a trend.

I'm hoping most can agree that there's a big difference between a large river, State and National Recreation areas and a small creek full of wild trout. When I say large river I mean one that can support drift boat use and even power boats in some cases. When I say a creek full of wild trout I'm talking about those places where you can find shelter from crowded larger rivers and streams tucked away from the world at large.

I don't know how many new members will read this or if the existing membership will agree with what I say but...…

We get quite a few posts from new members asking for advice on where to fish. Some are of the "I'm traveling to X and looking for some good fishing in the area" type posts. Others describe very clearly where a person found good fishing and go on to name the creek or lake.

Please don't get me wrong here, if someone mentions the Madison River in Montana it's not like that is someone's secret spot. However I can imagine how a person would feel if they read a post on the internet describing the little mountain stream they have been fishing in solitude for the past year or longer and the poster goes on to say how they got there.

Hot Spotting. Yep, it has a name, I didn't name it I'm just using the terminology.

I almost replied to a first post recently wherein the poster described in detail a peaceful place with loads of fish. I actually worked at how to somehow say 'Welcome to the forum' and warn against giving such details but eventually gave up for fear of driving the person away by seeming unfriendly and deleted the reply.

The last thing you want is for your little slice of heaven to become popular or so I'd assume so let's make an effort to tell others not to Name small streams or hidden mountain ponds in posts.

If you feel inclined to offer help to a stranger please do it via the Private Message system, does that make sense? If the new member did not enable private messaging when they set up the account that's not our problem.

Does any of that sound reasonable?

Remember, I'm not talking about large rivers or tailwaters with boat launch and public camping facilities, I'm talking about small streams and especially those streams in states that have been suffering drought conditions either recently or for years. Your fish have enough stress on them already without their homes being advertised on the forum.

I know that the last thing I want to see are directions to the places where I've discovered decent trout fishing posted on a forum, any forum.

My apologies if this seems harsh but I think we gotta draw the line somewhere.

I feel better now,

Ard

 

[rfb700]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

Agree100 percent.

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[k_e_v]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

Ard, I find the above reasonable and well said.
I think it is a nuanced solution and takes into account the joy of sharing this great sport and protecting fragile areas.
I will be forever greatful for this forum that I found with a google search 4 years ago and not to be overly dramatic it has changed my life. I often share info on smaller streams in pm’s with newer members and will continue to post pics on well travelled rivers and streams in hope of lighting a fire in a fellow angler and in a small way pay it forward

Kev

 

[plecain]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

Makes sense to me.
I use the PM system if I'm giving any but very vague suggestions.

On a related note - be careful with the photos you post.
First, many places are somewhat famous and are easily identified from photos.
Second, many cameras these days record GPS info whenever a picture is taken. You can strip that info from photos before posting them. I recommend that you do.
In one case on a local board, with the GPS info and Google Earth, I was able to tell what rock the guy was standing on at a place in Maine.

 

[sab_0010]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

I agree. Personally, I see no problem in someone helping another person find a place to fish, but places that few know about shouldn't be displayed on a public forum where everyone can read about it. At the same time, I think it is selfish to offer no assistance when someone reaches out to you for advice. This doesn't mean you have to give away your favorite streams or holes, just point the person in the right direction to find fish. If the information is not widely known, it is best exchanged through private means.

 

[ia_trouter]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

Sounds very reasonable. IMO all we have to do is mind our manners and not run off a potential new longtime forum member. I get numerous requests per year for IA Driftless spots to fish. If it's your first day here I will politely tell you to research the big three Iowa creeks because my dachshund could find vids on youtube if she could type. If you want the advice refined some you better have some posts here and we will talk about it via PM after you take the secret oath. Heck I'll probably meet you there if our schedules coincide. It's just common sense when most of our water is pounded into submission. I don't want to see my favorite hole on Facebook next week. Be HELPFUL, but not STUPID. No different than what you do when somebody wants a little free AK info.

 

[Ard]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

I'm happy to see agreement.

I tend to be very tight lipped because unless I actually know a person I have no way of knowing what that person will do with any info I share with them.

Here, many know where the rivers and creeks are at. Many have boats. But not all that many know exactly where to stand or where to cast in order to find a fish. A couple years ago I had offered to take a fellow from Anchorage up a river so he could "play with a new Winston Spey rod" and maybe catch a king while we were at it. 5 days before the day I had planned on he called to ask if he could bring his brother and 2 nephews along.

Imagine how I felt at the moment, caught flat footed. I had never met this guy face to face, only talked on the phone and he already wanted to share?

I weaseled out of the whole thing clumsily but I got out of the whole trip.

That's the problem in my mind, I show one person and 2 days later he's there with the guys after work or whatever. This isn't supposed to be like Tailgating before the game, at least I never saw it that way.

Guess how I've found the places I fish for the past 50 years?

 

[ddb]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

A counterpoint view....

IMO a beginner's apprenticeship does not include the keys to the kingdom. Mine never did and I worked to find my way.

So cuz really good fishing spots on moving water w/o crowds here in the East are rare as honest lawyers, they are NOT going to be revealed by me to anyone.

To the contrary. I practice denial and deception -- even taught a course in it in a previous life, but that's all sealed under a secrecy agreement. I park far from such spots and walk in -- best in the dark. I'll even walk past them if others are in the area. Caught in the act on such a spot I might leave with a mumbled curse about the damn copperheads/rattlers there.

The true names of such spots are never used. Asked about a special spot out of the blue, I plead ignorance and might even ask if it has recovered from last year's fish kill.

I 'll steer beginners to middling waters and even help with tackle and fly tips and even a few freebies. Beyond that you'll need the tools of the Inquisition.

ddb

 

[silver creek]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

I agree Ard.

For our purposes, mentioning large well known fisheries does not harm the fishery. But hot spotting a small local fishery can ruin it. In a similar fashion, there are small streams in the Driftless regions of Wisconsin that cannot take heavy pressure but naming the "Driftless' region does not specifically draw attention to them.

When I moved to my local town in Wisconsin, I fished many local streams. Some were very small and I was surprised that they were NOT included in the free Wisconsin DNR publication of "Trout Streams of Wisconsin." Over time I got to know the local DNR fisheries biologist really well and I asked him if he knew that "Bumble Choke Creek" had native brookies. He was well aware of that. Then I asked why it was not listed in Trout Streams of Wisconsin.

His reply was that the DNR decided that small creeks like that could not take the fishing pressure that listing the stream would cause. I then understood the impact the DNR publication of trout streams could have on small fisheries.

Our forum is like the DNR publication. Secrets streams like "Bumble Choke Creek" need to be kept secret.

 

[Ard]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

ddb,

I've done that; actually made a sort of blind for my old full sized Bronco (flat black finish) along a secondary road in Pennsylvania so no one would spot it speeding by. I used to fish the famous Spring Creek from 1980 through 2003, I arrived before sunup and was always on the way back to the truck by 9 AM. If I did well and ran into people walking upstream who ask I always said, "I don't think there are any fish here" if I did not do well I told them I had a terrific morning.

The rattlesnake & copperhead thing is part of mountain fishing 101 I believe. You'd have to waterboard to get to the real truth in my case

 

[sweetandsalt]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

When Hemingway wrote his story about the Big Two Hearted River, guess what, it was another UP stream he had his experience on and protected it by using the poetic name of another piece of water.

 

[fr8dog]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

I'll give you any info you want. Fly, bait, lure, depth, speed, color, etc... Except where. It's bad enough that folks rely on the 'bent rod pattern' to find fish. Now with side imaging, guys will slowly pass the boat, wave, and be zooming in on the spot I'm fishing and hit waypoints. (which I find humorous because their sonar unit cost more than my old boat, motor, and contents) Posting on the interwebs? Nope. I may have put a pic on in the past, but I'm a tad bit more careful now.

Want to see some real secrecy? Ask me where we get our morels. Bring your waterboard.

 

[Rip Tide]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

I might be thinking of the original post that brought this on
A brand new flyfisher was asking about a specific location that he wanted to try and asked if anyone knew....
My first thought was SPOT BURNING ! but the more that I thought of it the more I realized was that if this total newbie knew of it, that's the way it was intended to be.
Here in CT, there's plenty of heavily stocked "hot spots" that the state promotes for the exact purpose of helping new anglers getting their feet wet. (so to speak )
Nothing wrong with that at all.

Saltwater locations that I might mention.... that's just the spot. The difficulty lies with knowing the "when and why".
The location means nothing unless you understand what's gong on
When I occasionally might specify trout locations, SURPRISE!, I don't actually fish there.
Those spots are already too crowded for me so I don't really care :becky:
Sending other people there actually works to my advantage

As for Mr pelcain's point about pictures....I LOVE his pictures
I'm not about to go out and poach his 10 inch trouts, but to me, trying to figure out exactly where he is is a puzzle to solve and I very much enjoy trying to figure that out.

 

[scotty macfly]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

Ard, you hit it right on buddy!

I have no problems at all sharing info on the waters I fish that are right there in the open where the world can pull over and fish if it likes. I also have no problem taking someone fishing for their first time to places that are public and are maybe not so fished, but the place is no secret at all. It's great having areas like this so a person learning how to fish can catch fish and not get discouraged, but also realizes it's not always that simple.

But just today I went to a spot I had never seen anyone fish before. It was my get away from civilization and worry only about cougars. Oh, and they are about. This morning I went to that place, and hiked in and enjoyed what nature had to offer. This creek was really moving, and it was really difficult fishing, but I didn't care because I was all alone. At least I thought I was. I was followed by three other gents. I wonder if they saw me enter into this area and decided to follow me and see why I went in. Oh well, it was good while it lasted.

As for new members, they need to understand by being informed that fly fishing is a sacred thing, and secret spots are a sanctuary to us, and in time, with enough searching they will have their spot of solitude.

If someone wants to come to CO. and fish gold medal trout water, I have no problem saying the Arkansas River is 100 miles of what you're looking for. If someone asks about where I go to get away, I guess I now have to say there's three guys other than I that might give that answer, but I won't.

 

[spm]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

Absolutely agree, Ard. Also agree with responders above, some of whom are very ingenious. Love the fish kill question. I also applaud WI DNA for the farsightedness Silver described.

steve

 

[corn fed fins]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

IMO,

Well known fisheries who cares. It's that back water oasis' that I'm sick of seeing broadcasted. Books authored by a self proclaimed "conservationist" that for $29.95 will sell directions, access points, patterns, and specific holes to those lesser known waters. I'm so sick of it I emailed said aurthors and questioned their conservation philosophy. In our state of 5.6 million residents, accompanied by a huge tourist influx, these lesser waters get trappled very quick.

If most ask, I'm willing to talk openly about major waters. PM me for more details but you better have been a member here for some time and it's not post #1 asking where to go, the response may not be very amiable.

I see that kind of person being the type I do not want in that back water oasis. Lol

CFF


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[karstopo]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

It would seem in the age of Google Earth, nothing would be hidden or secret, but I guess that isn’t necessarily true.

I don’t have to deal with crowded trout water. I do have to deal with sometimes crowded saltwater. I have spots I will potentially reveal and ones that I try to protect from being revealed. The spots I protect are the ones that are often productive, but that I almost never see anyone nearby. The spots I might reveal are the ones where there’s typically people nearby there everytime I’m there.

There are a lot of good spots and I’m always looking for more. So if an area gets “discovered” or becomes a hot spot I’ll have back ups. Season, tide, wind all alter what constitutes a good spot. Getting a bead on that is the biggest secret to discover.

 

[al_a]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

I don't even publish exact sections of the well known streams, as a rule. My thought process is that I want to see the fishing pressure distributed "naturally", instead of bringing a bunch more people to a single section. I got into a big argument on another forum about publishing exact stretches of known streams, and it got to where a few people thought it was okay for them to tell about even the little known creeks. I couldn't believe it. There are so many reasons to be vague about good fishing spots.

There's a tiny creek near my home in Missouri. Riffles so small you can step across them in two steps without getting your ankles wet. Most of the pools are less than three feet deep. Right next to highways, but so unprepossessing that few if any anglers that didn't already know the creek would think to fish it. But it was once full of smallmouth bass, including some real trophies...I'm talking 20 inch fish. Then one idiot who had relatives that were landowners along the creek told about catching those 20 inchers on a couple forums, and named the creek. In a year, the fishing went downhill to where you couldn't catch anything over 15 inches, and I saw people fishing it a lot.

Second case in point...a stretch of my home river in Missouri, pretty far upstream, had a tremendous year class of smallmouth one year that, years later, were all in the 17-18 inch range. That stretch, a seldom floated section of a well-known stream, had more smallmouth of that size that year than any other stretch. Then, just two guys, meat fishermen, found out about it. They told me and my brother how many smallmouth they were catching on that section, and they fished it every week from mid-July until autumn and kept limits of those fish every time. The next year, there were very few decent size fish in that section.

So don't think you can't influence the fish population on even well-known streams by being too loose-lipped on the net.

Not to mention that there's a selfish motive here...the fewer people that know about a good spot, even one that SOME people already know about, the less likely it is that some of them will show up the same day I want to fish it. If a hundred anglers know about it, I might still have a good chance of having it to myself on a weekday. If a thousand know about it, my chances of solitude have just decreased tenfold.

 

[Ard]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

Not to mention that there's a selfish motive here...the fewer people that know about a good spot, even one that SOME people already know about, the less likely it is that some of them will show up the same day I want to fish it.

Nothing wrong with that in my world at all Al, like if I knew a place where I could find over 75 dollars in change whenever I went there I wouldn't tell anyone about it.

 

[teardrop]

Re: A Vary Tricky Topic to Address;

ddb,

I've done that; actually made a sort of blind for my old full sized Bronco (flat black finish) along a secondary road in Pennsylvania so no one would spot it speeding by. I used to fish the famous Spring Creek from 1980 through 2003, I arrived before sunup and was always on the way back to the truck by 9 AM. If I did well and ran into people walking upstream who ask I always said, "I don't think there are any fish here" if I did not do well I told them I had a terrific morning.

The rattlesnake & copperhead thing is part of mountain fishing 101 I believe. You'd have to waterboard to get to the real truth in my case

I’m from Indiana and fish mostly public waters. I love fly fishing but in the winter it’s ice fishing. My area of northern Indiana has lots of natural lakes that have been developed over the years and public access on some of the better ones has declined. Access is a premium, the internet has created a problem when available ice has been posted on another fishing site by the good meaning with directions on where the poster is getting on the ice at. Not saying he is wrong for fishing that place, the original poster probably has permission to access the lake from the land owner. But when he comes back the next day and there are ten vehicles park in the spot it usually ends bad with cars being towed and everyone losing permission. I have seen this over and over, many people who visit these sites never post reports or give out information they have learned their lesson the hard way.


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