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Thread: TU

  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    Snake, Clearwater and tribs
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    Default Re: TU

    Silver, thank you for a very informative post! Dave

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  3. Default Re: TU

    The reason the Clark Fork was so polluted was because in 1908 there was a great flood, so water rushed through the mines and then deposited toxic materials in the Clark Fork. A hundred years ago, little was known about mining pollution, and therefore mining wasn't regulated. Today it is, and today we have much cleaner mining technologies. The fact is the Clark Fork is getting cleaner and cleaner, without the radical initiative that TU strongly supported, an initiative that would have enriched lawyers and thrown miners out of work.

    Yes, I support some regulation, but if TU had their way the government would regulate most mining and fracking out of business.

    As for fracking: It has proved to be environmentally sound. Fracking takes place about 7,000 feet underground, way below drinking or fishing water. We would not be better off buying energy from the middle east; and the fact is that, right now, we are dependent on fossil fuels and on mining. Many outdoor groups are secretly funded, in part, by the socialist left which, if they their way, would turn the US into Venezuela. I am not sure where all of TU's money comes from, but in my humble opinion, the world doesn't revolve around fly fishing. Working folks need cheap gas and cheap home-heating fuel. Look at what's going on in France because of the high fuel costs. And businesses, which employ many people, also need cheap fuel.

    It is not fair to judge present-day mining with what happened a hundred or even 50 years ago. Today's bureaucrats, we know, love to over regulate. Ask doctors. Ask most businessmen.

    I am sorry that this thread has turned political. Yes, I am to blame, but the fact is that TU is, in large part, a political organization.

    I resent that my money was spend on a mining initiative that I strongly opposed.

    My two and three cents.

    Randy

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  5. #33

    Default Re: TU

    Quote Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post

    As for fracking: It has proved to be environmentally sound. Fracking takes place about 7,000 feet underground, way below drinking or fishing water. We would not be better off buying energy from the middle east; and the fact is that, right now, we are dependent on fossil fuels and on mining. Many outdoor groups are secretly funded, in part, by the socialist left which, if they their way, would turn the US into Venezuela. I am not sure where all of TU's money comes from, but in my humble opinion, the world doesn't revolve around fly fishing. Working folks need cheap gas and cheap home-heating fuel. Look at what's going on in France because of the high fuel costs. And businesses, which employ many people, also need cheap fuel.

    Randy
    Randy,

    Now that you have brought up fracking, I am not against it but it must be done in an environmentally sound fashion. Although TU does not comment on fracking, your contention that fracking does not affect the water table is simply wrong.

    Both fracking for natural gas and for oil REQUIRES that the drill and well casings go THROUGH the water table. Therefore, as long as the casings are intact, there is no pollution of the water table. There has been and probably will continue to be instances where there are cracks in the well casings and natural gas and fracking fluid escapes into the water table. But by insisting that strong well casings are used with proper drilling methods, the escape of fluid and gas is minimized.

    CBS's 60 Minutes program has done several pieces on homeowners who can light the natural gas escaping from their water faucets. Natural gas in water is not regulated by the EPA since it is consider not to be toxic but high levels as have occurred in some homes have created an explosion and fire hazard.

    Natural gas production contaminated drinking water in Texas, study finds - Los Angeles Times

    Natural gas found in drinking water near fracked wells - NBC News

    The videos below demonstrate how high levels of methane can get into the water table in concentrations that can create an explosion hazard in some homes.






    Fracking fluid is toxic. Both Scientific American and the hamstrung EPA have published studies on fracking fluid which has escaped from the well casings and poisoned the water table.

    Final EPA Study Confirms Fracking Contaminates Drinking Water

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-gas-drilling/

    https://cfpub.epa.gov/ncea/hfstudy/r...fm?deid=332990

    Do I think fracking should be stopped? No. Do I think fracking needs to be regulated and the industry held to safety standards? Yes.

    You seem to think I want to stop all mining and drilling. I do not. You have fallen into the logical error of misstating my position and setting up a straw man fallacy which is arguing against a position that I have not taken.

    Our citizens and businesses do need cheap energy but they also need safe water that is not explosive or toxic. I think we can have both if the driller are held to safety standards.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  6. Default Re: TU

    I am curious to know: how many TU members and board members live in Montana and listened to the long, mining initiative debates that were on the radio? Probably very few. Well I did, and, as I said, I came away with the conclusion that the initiative would have led to enriching lawyers, unemployed miners and related workers, and, because of present mining regulation and technology, relatively little impact on our rivers.

    Regulation today all too often means over regulation. No solution to our energy needs is perfect. Fracking has proven to be overwhelmingly safe, though certainly not perfect. Fracking is a much safer solution than buying energy from the middle east or Russia, both of which will use then use the money against us. 60 minutes, we know, is very biased to the left. Did they say, for example, that fracking has led to a decrease of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere? Did they say that thousands of folks have high paying jobs because of fracking? Did they say they energy is a lot cheaper because of fracking?

    Also, Silver, I believe you are a physician. Well most physicians I speak to tell me how much they hate government regulation and, if they had to do it all over again, wouldn't go to medical school, because of regulation. My doctor, when I was living in NYC, was a liberal, and yet at the age of about 40 he packed it in, because, he said, he couldn't deal with all the regulation (and low HMO and Medicare reimbursements).

    I was in the limousine business for many years, and I saw first hand the devastating effect of government regulation. Very liberal George McGovern, when he retired from politics, opened a restaurant. After he did so he said, if he had known of the effects of government regulation, he would have opposed much of the regulation he had supported.

    Yes, TU is doing some great work, for example, organizing cleanups. But IMHO they should not get involved in local politics.

    Randy

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  8. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
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    West of Houston, Texas
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    912

    Default Re: TU

    Not to derail, but Iím in the petroleum industry. Fracing has produced LOTS more oil for America. So much so that the price plummeted 4.5 years ago. Lots of other factors of course, but that was accompanied by massive layoffs. My work team went from 21 staff in early 2015 to 5 by late 2015. And itís stayed that way since. Calgary had 40k+ unemployed oil and gas workers. So...low oil and gas prices are not great for those of us working in (or those associated with) the industry. Whatís good for some peopleísí wallets is a disaster to others. That whole perspective thing...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ďItís all in the reflexes.Ē

  9. #36

    Default Re: TU

    My impression is that most habitat do-gooding is done by local chapter and counsel of TU sometimes with support from National supplementing local fundraising. Also that National TU utilizes most of its resources to perform cold water protective lobbying activity in Washington...a more uphill battle than ever these days.

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  11. #37

    Default Re: TU

    Quote Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post

    Yes, TU is doing some great work, for example, organizing cleanups. But IMHO they should not get involved in local politics.

    Randy
    Now we are discussing where the rubber meets the road.

    “All politics is local” is a phrase used by former Democratic House Speaker Tip O’Nell in his 1935 campaign. It still rings true today. What happens in Washington DC matters locally, it seems more so in our times than during those times. If TU were to campaign for national clean mining laws in DC, it WILL affect what is allowed in Montana and my state of Wisconsin. More than ever, it seems, there is no “safe harbor” which I assume is what you are looking for.

    As to whether TU absolutely needs to get involved in local politics in Montana, I need only to remind everyone of the 2008 Montana Supreme Court decision on Mitchell Slough.

    Mitchell Slough - Ravalli County - PLWA

    Trout Rustling Gone Mad | Outside Bozeman

    Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks, Involuntary Plaintiff and Appellant, v. Walter R. Babcock, Bitterroot Springs Ranch, Tucker Crossing Ranch, and Valley Springs Ranch, Intervenors-Third Party Plaintiffs and Appellees, | FindLaw

    It started when wealthy land owners including internet stock broker billionaire Charles Schwab bought up land and made Mitchell Slough their private domain.

    ”Opponents to the law as it applied to the slough included former pop star Huey Lewis, Charles Schwab, and Private Wealth Partners managing director Kenneth Siebel. A home belonging to Anthony Marnell II, the head of a casino construction company, is built over a tributary to Mitchell Slough.”

    ”Wealthy, out-of-state landowners (rocker Huey Lewis, broker Charles Schwab and others) bought up the land along the slough and other landowners, who cater to paying fishing and private friends, erected double fences to keep out the floaters and waders on the premise that the slough is an irrigation ditch and what was once recognized as public is now theirs. Actually, the slough channels are a natural stream and meander within the riparian area of the Bitterroot River.”

    After the landowners won in the lower courts, Sportsmen groups including TU filed briefs in support of public access to Mitchell Slough all the way to the Montana Supreme Court.

    ”Montana Council of Trout Unlimited’s (MTU) Amicus Brief shared, “MTU members were instrumental in passing the Montana Natural Land and Streambed Preservation Act of 1975 (commonly called ‘the 310 Law’ after its original designation as Senate Bill 310). Over the past two decades MTU and its chapters, working in partnership with private landowners, have undertaken numerous stream restoration projects under the jurisdiction of the 310 Law.”

    The Supreme Court reversed a lower court decision maintaining public access to the waters of the Bitterroot River.

    The Supreme Court reversed the District Court decision, finding that the Mitchell Slough qualified as a natural perennial stream under the 310 Law, requiring a permit to alter the stream bed. The Court determined that Mitchell Slough was a natural channel, improved by people over the years, that the channel existed in a natural state before man-made alterations. “In conclusion, the Mitchell Slough is subject to stream access and public recreation as provided by the SAL. (Stream Access Law)”

    Another way TU gets directly involved locally is by maintaining public access leases when the Montana runs short of funds. See Ruby River Access sites secured:

    Montana's stream access law stays strong — High Country News

    Here again a billionaire, James Cox Kennedy, tried to prevent access to the public waters of the Ruby River. Montana TU and its chapters will fund the $45,000.00 cost of keeping open the public leases for access to the Ruby River.

    ”When the topic of stream access and the Ruby River is raised in Montana it’s often related to absentee landowner James Cox Kennedy from Atlanta and his 15-year legal and political efforts to prevent the public from accessing this great fishery. However, not all stories about stream access coming from the Ruby Valley are as distressing as the Kennedy tale. Recently we can thank some civic-minded ranchers and, in part, Montana TU and three of its chapters for a bit of good news about the Ruby…

    Agency staff and Montana TU visited with the landowners about the funding shortfall. Montana TU and three of its chapters – Madison-Gallatin, Lewis and Clark and George Grant – volunteered to throw in $9,000 a year for five years to help secure the leases.


    These are several example how local politics and local TU chapters continue to fight the good fight for all fishermen and fisherwomen whether they belong to TU or not. What would be nice is some acknowledgment by those who do not belong to TU that their fishing rights are better for the presence of TU and its local chapters.

    Finally, and this is really important. No one can have it both ways as to whether TU should be politically active locally or nationally. Some events REQUIRE that TU take local action such as those I have mentioned above. It is simply wrong, and quite frankly, unfair to TU to parse when they should act on their mission statement; "To conserve, protect and restore North America's coldwater fisheries and their watersheds" and when they should not.

    What would you do if you had a friend who only supported you only when it was convenient? They would not be much of a friend in my opinion. I support TU because I think that it is the right thing to do and not the convenient thing to do.
    Last edited by silver creek; 01-02-2019 at 03:05 PM.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  12. Default Re: TU

    Folks,

    I love this board. I am sorry politics came into it. Yes, much of that is my fault. I hope we can all still get along. Hearing different opinions - probably is a different kind of forum - is healthy.

    Wishing everyone much health and happiness during 2019.

    Randy

  13. #39

    Default Re: TU

    I join Randy in wishing everyone a wonderful New Year.

    Dear Lord, please give everyone…


    A few friends who understand them and remain their friends;

    A work to do which has real value, 
without which the world would be the poorer;

    A mind unafraid to travel, even though the trail be not blazed;

    An understanding heart;

    A sense of humor;

    Time for quiet, silent meditation;
    
A feeling of the presence of God;
    The patience to wait for the coming of these things,

    With the wisdom to recognize them when they come.

    Amen.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Montrose, CO.
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    Default Re: TU

    I'm a constitutional and fiscal Conservative, long before it was a label. There are actions that TU takes with which I agree and others I do not. I believe that TU plays a very important role in conserving, improving, and defending Our cold water resources. I got involved so I could help guide my chapter in these same efforts. I give my yearly membership money to TU but that pales in comparison to what I give to specific projects. I learned long ago that sitting back and complaining yields zero results.

    My biggest support for TU is the creation of a large pool of money for projects. Funny how many people have no idea that the reason they can fish a lot of the water is only because of 501(c)(3)s. In fact, the whole lower potion of the Gunnison river is accessible because of them and their combined purchase power. So thank them if you ever float the Black Canyon.

    My world is reliant on gas, oil, coal and agricultural production. In fact, so is the entire nation. I would rather work with these industries than against them. Accidents will happen. Regulations that push the fossil fuel industries into less than ideal environments can, will, and have resulted in mishaps that are not easily addressed.

    Better yet is the complaining about how agricultural is sucking the rivers dry while washing down their local prime rib with a local red wine at a benefit. Open the discussion about how residential lawns are an unnecessary waste and pollution source and see how well you are received. Once you point out how "they" directly contribute to the demise of water, well, good luck. Many just "feel" disgusted as they are not the culprit. It's all ____________ fault.


    TU is just part of a check and balance system. In fact, they are "fairly" reasonable and "usually" pursue common sense practices.lol . There are other groups that are way out of touch and if they had their way you wouldn't even walk on that land. And fishing? Bwahahahahahaha. They would rather see you die a long agonizing death before you hooked a fish. (HSUS predators)

    CFF

    Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk
    Nice fish! Do you have anymore pictures of it lying in the dirt?
    As publicity increases so does the propensity of tripping over yards of mono attached to a Dipsey sinker.

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