Something to consider

[eastfly66]

On the road today and figured I’d stop by one of my shops to get some material, it’s not often I’m in the area. The usual conversation, where you been fishing and any luck and I mentioned I’ve been down to a well known New England river a few times with sporadic luck and trying my hand at the Czech nymph style and this brings us to the topic of this post. Now before I get into it let me say I am not criticizing anyone or any method. As a matter of fact I don’t even have an opinion because I’m still trying to figure it out ….sort of like which came first, chicken or the egg.

So, here is how the story goes, we are talking about this river and euro nymphing and my buddy tells me about a gentleman he know that lives on said river and fishes it daily mentioned how the proliferation of this style of fishing has “changed the fishery. Individuals will get on a pool or run and not quit until they have stuck almost every trout they can” ….now that is probably not the exact statement but close enough.

Now I can attest to the popularity of the method down there, I see it more than on most other rivers I visit. I think it is safe to say the method is also extremely effective and I would think although someone may not become proficient enough to join the USA team they will see a heck of a catch rate. I do think someone that gains reasonable skill in this method is going to rack up far greater numbers than say a highly skilled dry fly or streamer guy …we good with that ?. I also note this is one man’s opinion/comment, it may be an isolated case or maybe not.

Probable cause, this is what leads me to believe the comment has merit. First off, everyone wants to catch fish and the method is proven otherwise it would not be favored in the competitive circles and this is where a problem, at least in part MAY exist. The goal in competition as I understand it is numbers and if you really start to study these methods you eventually end up reading about the competitions. I’m I reaching for it by saying this fosters a “catch the most “mentality and is there really anything wrong with that anyway? I do think there is when it promotes sitting on a section of water (spot hogging) which is quite familiar to those of us that steelhead the Salmon River in prime time. Anyway, I’m not saying there is or isn’t a link or it is having an impact at all on the fishery or fly fishing in general but it does have me thinking. I am experimenting with Czech nymph method and will continue to do so but I will be that much more aware should I start having great success at a given spot.

There is more and I’m sure it will probably come up here should the topic be discussed. If it does, please try to keep it informative and civil. I have heard the argument it is not fly fishing because the line never touches the water (fly line) but that is hard for me to accept. I happen to fish a local tailwater where 000 wt and long leaders with 24 and smaller dry flies are the norm, much of the time guys are casting leaders only.
The particular river in question is well known for prolific hatches and dry fly action, some consider it on par with the Delaware. Is this or could this have an effect on this as well ? If it does is the core issue the mentality of those fishing the method or the method itself.

It certainly has me asking questions and thinking.

 

[Ard]

I've made numerous negative posts regarding the plastic bead under the bobber here in Alaska. To say that the proliferation (to steal a word) of people fishing this way is overwhelming would be a gross understatement. The trout are literally torn up but with salmon eggs being the large part of their subsistence diet they grab again and again until they either bleed out of die of some other result shock etc.

If they go off eating eggs then they risk not being well off enough to survive winters. I do however find a few that a person fly fishing with a nice fancy streamer pattern can still catch. The Dept. of Fish & Game now closes the most popular trout waters here until June to give the fish a chance to spawn and recover from the prior 9 months of being used as a source of amusement for unskilled fishermen.

Yeah, techniques can change a river or section of it I think and generally not for the better in cases like I've mentioned.

 

[karstopo]

It’s hard to change the mentality of those folks that make fishing solely a numbers game. Some people just can’t turn off or even temper the natural competitive impulses we almost all tend to have. I suppose euro nymphing is a tool. Is the tool the problem or the mentality of the user the issue? I’d say the mentality of the user is the true thing to focus on.

I’d say enjoy learning euro nymphing and see where it takes you. You may or may not like it, feel free to walk away or dial it back when it doesn’t fit with your sense of ethics. If it works better than you could have imagined, you can always stop at any instant and walk away from a hole or spot and not wipe out the fish.

 

[JoJer]

Didn't we hear these same kinds of discussions when indicators became popular?

 

[Ard]

Didn't we hear these same kinds of discussions when indicators became popular?

Yeah but...………….. It's so hard for me not say something that can be seen as negative when one gets started a thread I mean. When you live somewhere that is being overrun and it's all about the number of fish caught it makes a very robust impression on you. I've been here long enough to honestly say I am witness to some of the most famous fisheries on Mainland Alaska being diminished to a level which they may not rebound from in my lifetime. I our members were seeing what I see each year it could make a similar impression, maybe.

If and when I post something that displays my annoyance with some form of fishing the words are deeply rooted in one undeniable fact. The fact being that I am a fly fisherman who enjoys fair chase sport and focused decades of my life on building skills that on occasion others will pay me to teach to them. I just can't help myself at times. I don't name names or direct my remarks as personal attacks and I do hope no one sees any of that written between the lines

 

[scotty macfly]

Euro nymphing, from French, Spanish, Polish/Czeck. Since you are specifying that you are Czech nymphing, maybe I can help. When I fish with nymphs, I only Czech nymph. Thats with heavy nymphs, 10ft rod, and it's meant to be close and personal. I will throw light weight nymphs upstream the French style, but lets just stick to Czech style to make it easy. But remember this, I am basically a dry fly fisherman 95% of the time.

First thing first. Chech nymphing IS fly fishing. Why? You're fishing with flies aren't you? Yes, so lets not be stupid about that. It has nothing to do with the line not touching the water.....nothing. There is NO floating strike indicator when Czech nymphing, but you can and maybe should use a strike indicator built into your line. There are colored leaders you can buy for that.

This method is meant for faster water. Fish each side of the seams and the inside of slicks. It's really good with rocky pocket water. You will be amazed how close you can actually get to the fish because the turbulent water kind of hides you. It is a deadly way of fishing as in it is very productive. It's almost a no thinking way to fish, with a 10 ft. rod, short casts and short drifts. Basically everything is happening right in front of you, so you must be ready for anything to happen. It also works great in thigh deep riffles.

Many from what I understand who are on the fly fishing competitive teams do this style more often than not. It is very productive, and it's been said time and time again that it's more productive than casting out nymphs in slower deeper water with a floating indicator. Not my words, but others have said that, and I have to agree with what I have experienced.

Now, staying on a run or pool till you have caught every trout you can having an effect on changing the fishery, I can see it happening. All I can say is, any place on a river that gets heavily fished often is going to see an impact sooner or later. And as popular as Czech nymphing is getting, because how simple it really is and effective as well, it could be a reason for the change in your rivers. JMHO.

 

[eastfly66]

It’s hard to change the mentality of those folks that make fishing solely a numbers game.

This very well might be the core issue. As in many topics the tool is seldom the issue however the manner it is utilized or the extent can be questionable. Ard's comments relating the question to his own observations of how bead fishing has impacted Alaska and the parallels I can relate to my own observations on the SR here, do hit a nerve and I am wondering could this be a similar path.

I have to side with Scotty on if it is fly fishing or not , I see no credible argument to consider otherwise. Utilized in a responsible manner, meaning with streamside ettiquette there is no problem. I am far past the numbers game but I am also old and been FF for a long time. Perhaps the issue (if there is in fact an issue) is how is this effecting those new to FF or younger FF'ers? I think it is safe to say when your young you are in competition with everything, add to that I see at least 3-4 local social media sites where it appears to be a need to post a picture of every single fish you land no matter what the size. I figured out how to turn off notifications from those sites long ago. I see a lot of merit in the points Ard puts on the table and it is perhaps the point that is bothering me the most. Could this popularity, combined with social media and shops promoting the effectiveness in the name of sales lead to a mentality that turns otherwise blue ribbon waters into commercial killl zones like Ard mentions in AK or the SR. I can say the SR has made a massive recovery from what was once a complete horror show but it has taken a long time and there is still a long way to go. Sorry if my thoughts are not well formatted , I'm shooting form the hip here.

Additional note here, for those younger people that might have taken offense. I am not pointing to you as the source. In fact I can see and know of guys my own age that have taken to this method. One even has a habit of sitting in the same spot all day. You take the occasional fly guy that goes 3 maybe 4 times a year and has limited success and teach him/her this method and they double and triple the number and you have the same end product.....someone that is focused on the result and not the process.

 

[Unknownflyman]

Nymph fishing ruining rivers? Unlikely
Nymph fishers catching every fish in a hole? Unlikely
Nymph fishers unethical as a group? Unlikely
Nymph catch and release has higher mortality? Unlikely

I know bait, worm and spawn fishermen have the highest mortality and catch rates, and the amount of people casting lures with triple treble hooked rapalas, buzz baits, leeech jigs and spinners far out populate fly fishing.

I know that commercial and sustenance fishing in Alaska has ruined the fishery bead fishing isn’t on the radar.

Looking at the stats when I was in Scandinavia- 3% of salmon catch is sport anglers, 60% commercial fishing and the rest were able to reproduce if they could if there wasn’t a dam.

If you don’t like drift fly fishing-fine but the rest is old guy yelling at clouds in my opinion.

Respect the rivers, respect the fish, at least think about ethics and catch and release.

And if you can’t get through respectable fish pics and reports it’s your own issue not the person who shares.

 

[eastfly66]

Good point on the mortality question but I don't think that was mentioned or implied. I do note that with the patterns barbless is overwhelmingly recommended. I am going to disagree on the bead fishing at least on steelhead water, it is common for those fishing this method to sit on a given spot all day to the point of bringing lawn chairs and tables for lunch. I seriously doubt the concept of rotation has entered their mind and it does impact the quality of the fishery for others IMO.

That being said , the theory behind Czech style is not to sit on a spot too long, work the water throughly and move on so done right I don't think it is a problem regarding that , does the effectiveness change the fishery I don't know but I am glad you offer a desenting opinion.

 

[scotty macfly]

Respect the rivers, respect the fish, at least think about ethics and catch and release.

This should be the quote of the year. That was well said.

When I see guides on the rivers with clients, I see them always fishing nymphs. Why? Its easy money for the guides because it produces fish. Everyone wants happy customers. But that's just what I have noticed.

To what unknownflyman said, yeah, I see his point. And also, the changing of a fishery isn't going to happen over night. It will take time & many, many hard hitting fishermen.

I prefer fishing with spiders, casting upstream, 20' casts. I don't catch near the amount of fish, but its a real challenge that takes focus. Its a lot like French style fishing, but with north country flies.
Find a challenging way to fish, & get good at it. There's the feeling of a job well done.

 

[Redrock]

Fly fishing by definition handicaps anglers. In this context, the “purist” argument has raged far longer than I’ve been alive. The English chalk stream dry fly verses wet fly rules come to mind.

To me the issue is about streamside etiquette. In the US go fish one of the Barnes Pools. Park on the run while ESN’ing. See what kind of reaction you get. Don’t be a f’n hog.

When I was young and catch and release was the rage, there were guys who had golf score clickers attached to their vests. Each fish caught got a click. The San Juan shuffle was a known “dirty” secret within the community. So, ESN hogs are nothing new. Again don’t be a f’n hog.

I believe the community does a good job of self policing. Where the fishing regs would otherwise permit it, fishing over actively spawning browns or rainbows is now frowned upon. Go to Depuys. There are signs prohibiting fishing within certain areas known to have spawning gravel. Those signs didn’t exist 25 years ago. I used to make an annual trip to Alaska to fish for big bows. I lost interest because the only techniques I knew involved catching rainbows on egg patterns or egg sucking leach patterns. It was too easy, and I felt self conscious about it. I haven’t been back. The ESN fish hogs will be ostracized and the technique will become just another way to catch fish.

 

[sweetandsalt]

Dillon and I have a public access undeveloped camp site on a Montana river we love and have used for decades. We travel out of this camp fishing several different streams and sections of the river. After an early dinner, we often choose to fish the evening but mostly locally. A ten minuet drive away is a bridge with a parking area with a great bend above it with a prolific trout population. Above the bend is a straight with a bank on the far side with undercuts and slower deeper water along it that we have fished for some spectacular fish with PMD spinners. But that was yesterday. Between that great holding water bank and the near access side is a broad gravely, easily waded run. From dawn to dark there is a line of stationary anglers Euro or Bobber Nymphing away. They are having a blast, whooping and hollering in delight as one big rainbow or brown is hooked after another. We can never get to the bank we like and when a guided drift boat comes through, they stay on that far bank and, with PMD's emerging do they have their sport fishing a dry fly? Of courser not...they're lobbing a big bright bobber. We fish the deeper, slower bend below where trout sip beneath the protective cover of willow an alder deadfalls draped in aquatic vegetation.

Back East our Project Healing Waters Region hosts a Memorial Day outing for Veterans as well as active duty personnel in for Fleet Week. This takes place on a farm with a well known NJ river running trough it leased by a private trout club who host us. They stock it with fish up to 10 pounds and have hung pellet feeders every hundred feet or so. To guide the veteran participants the Pennsylvania Competitive Team volunteers their expertise. A very nice group of mostly younger men dressed to the nines in the latest techy chest packs, they instruct the vets in the most effective high stick, short line techniques. They are fishing nymphs but I usual advise they switch to pellet imitations to be even more effective. Every body catches huge fish with deformed fins and they are very happy. It is a great event also attended by the NJ Championship Bar B Que team who trailer in their smoker and a ton of baby backs, wings and burgers. I may cast a dry fly for a bit just to hang with the fellows but mostly I rise to the ribs.

 

[eastfly66]

You have been on the water a long time S&S and I imagine seen some changes on the Catskills rivers & Delaware. Can you reflect on the comment made by the gentleman regarding the effect on the quality of the fishery aside from the ettiquette factor ? Did the popularity of FF have a notable effect on the Catskills water and in what way.

 

[rfb700]

First thing first. Chech nymphing IS fly fishing. Why? You're fishing with flies aren't you? Yes, so lets not be stupid about that. It has nothing to do with the line not touching the water.....nothing. There is NO floating strike indicator when Czech nymphing, but you can and maybe should use a strike indicator built into your line. There are colored leaders you can buy for that.

I'm always a little uncomfortable with the whole what is and what isn't fly fishing. If the single criteria is you are using a fly, well, Tenkara qualifies as does spin fishing with a fly. Regardless, the issue is whether it's ruining the resource.

And that is down to a whole host of factors that include the climate warming, environmental degradation, commercial fishing etc.

But I'm not so quick to let recreational fishermen off the hook. It's been discussed before but recreational fishing does have a negative impact on fisheries in some situations. There are studies out there if you care to look for them. So I for one can believe that people sitting on stretches of river strip mining the available fish can indeed be a big detriment to a fisheries health.

We have our role to play in the crisis that's currently taking place in the natural world. We should take steps to minimise it. I'd be quite happy to see Czech nymphing go the way of the dinosaur.

 

[Unknownflyman]

The camping issue, regardless of what fly fishing method is used, camping a spot for too long is just bad taste, it’s public water we all have to share.

Shoulder to shoulder fishing and camping spots all day is something I’d like American fly fishers to get past.

Like keep em wet, or catch and release, we should start the keep it moving campaign.

Keep it moving, share the river!

 

[Redrock]

The vast majority of the posts in this thread bolster my argument. Sooner or later the fly fishing community will ostracize the ESN camp and chunk crowd.

Over the years I’ve tied hundreds, if not thousands, of egg flies and associates patterns for myself, friends and customers. The ones I have left are all in boxes in storage. I just don’t need to catch a fish enough to egg them up any more. I evolved. Others will too as social pressure is exerted.

 

[Rip Tide]

I haven't noticed anyone using one in probably 30 years but "back in the day" it wasn't that unusual to see someone on stream with one of these tally counters
You could actually hear them being used.
Made me ill.
(ain't nothing new under the sun)

 

[flytie09]

A lot going on with this thread.....

- Is Euro (Czech, Polish, French, Spanish) nymphing fly fishing?
- Should one camp out on a spot?
- What threat is catch and release fishing for numbers.
- Beads
- Hole rotation
- Keep 'em wet
- Commercial fishing impact
- Global climate change

I use all techniques some times on the same day on the water. From high sticking, to swinging, dapping, indy, traditional dry fly...... They're all fly fishing, work and have their place in my mind. I've heard the saying and it rings true....... Once you learn all of these methods....then you can pick "your" method.

As far as camping out on a spot....... well it's not a battle I'm out to win. If you're there before me...then it's your spot for the day. I won't crowd someone to make it mine. If they're friendly and want to share the day and stretch and day together and share some flies, ideas and stories then great.

Camping out and Salmon/Steelhead fishing on the Great Lakes and on Western Rivers is just a reality. It draws some pretty unusual primal instincts out of people. I'm not going to grab a megaphone and preach to this group that they need to rotate the hole.



It's silly...... hole rotation is a great concept but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. I grab my walking stick and move to the next hole. It can be frustrating, but a mile up or down river from most parking lots will give you some solitude.

The doubling rate of the human population is every 67 years. So...... 7.7 billion today will be over 15 billion by 2086.

We're going to need to learn to coexist a whole lot better.

 

[rustneversleeps]

Very interesting topic to me - glad someone started a thread about it

 

[old timer]

My goal when I leave home in the morning is to fish an area so remote that I don't see another fisherman. So, how someone else fishes is no concern of mine. It's their business.


flytie....That picture you posted was pure torture for me. If that was my fishing i'd move.