Are wide gape hooks the best?

[jayw2942]

So i haven't been doing this long and i don't tie my own flies. Most of my nymphs come from big y fly. I notice on other higher end shops most nymphs, especially the euro ones have a wide gape hook it looks like. Are these best for holding onto fish? Are there other reasons im missing?

 

[mtboiler]

I tie all of my dry flies on wide gap hooks. I think it gives me a better hook set chance. I primarily use a scud style hook for nymphs. I think that it makes the nymph look more realistic. Just my opinion. I do try to find scud hooks with an offset bend. It make a big difference on hook sets.

 

[bigjim5589]

Are these best for holding onto fish?

There's a difference between "hooking" and "holding". Generally, a wider gape allows a better chance at hooking for a given hook size. For example, a size 28 hook is not going to have the same hooking potential as a size 12, due to the smaller gape, and a wide gape size 12 should have a better chance than a standard "J" hook. I say chance as there's never a guarantee.

I have a friend, who is a commercial lure maker, and he's done extensive testing and study on hooks & hooking, although generally for bass. He says that hooks will turn in the mouth of a bass, such that the point will penetrate nothing. Hook sizes and other factors, such as dressings or in the case of lures, such as jigs, the shape & weight of what's also added to the hook have affect on whether a hook point connects & penetrates. This can be varied by different fish species too since mouth structures are not all the same, but still it's a possible issue. Hook sizes can also be possible reason for misses. A hook can be too big, or too small in some cases. For flies, and trout, with their mouth structure, that's not usually a problem, but it certainly is with bass.

However, there are many variables that affect how or whether a hook actually sticks & penetrates, since the exact position of the hook in a fishes mouth can't be determined, and sometimes it misses completely. That is often angler error, attempting to set the hook too quickly, or too slowly, and possibly too hard where the hook is ripped loose. Bass anglers often attempt to set a hook too hard, and trout anglers can as well.

Another aspect, that many anglers overlook is how sharp the hook may be, especially after repeated casts. A dull hook lessens the chance of a good hook set, and a hook can get dull with use. Even a slight bent hook point is possible, and unless you check the hook often, you wouldn't even know it.

Hooks typically used for bait fishing are often kirbed or reversed to aid in a better hook up, yet fly hooks are usually inline. Circle hooks also are shaped differently, as to get a hook set in the corner of the mouth, but if a "set" is applied to this type of hook, it pulls the hook out of a fishes mouth.

As far as holding, the bend is really what holds a fish, provided there is enough point penetration and into a part of the fishes anatomy so that it won't pull loose. There has been debate over barbed hooks versus barbless for "holding" and the reality is the barb has nothing to do with it, unless there's slack in the line. Then it's possible a barbless hook might be thrown quicker than a barbed hook. I've debarbed hooks for many years and frankly see no positive to having a barb on my hooks, even trebles. Here again, angler error is the primary reason when a hook comes loose and there are other variables that can cause a hook to come unpinned, and no fault of the hook, unless it fails by breaking or bending.

IMO, from many, many years of experience, both tying & fly fishing, too many blame the hook, when it's often angler error(s) that are to blame for hooks that don't hook or hold.

And, yes, I lose fish sometimes, and I miss hook sets sometimes too. There are no guarantees no matter how "good" you think you are.

 

[duker]

There is a good article on this very subject in the latest issue of American Angler. Short answer (at least according to the article): yes.

And, as usual, bigjim makes some very good points.

Scott

 

[silver creek]

There is no free lunch. Barbless hook users often state that barbless hooks don't lose more fish but that is illogical. If a barbless hook is easier to remove, it is more easily dislodged. In fact many studies have shown this to be true. Certainly technique has some influence but not as great an influence as the fact of a barb vs no barb.

The Catch and Release Dilemma

Here are 3 independent studies specifically on catch rates with barbed vs barbless hooks. All three confirm higher loss rates with barbless hooks as would be expected.

North American Journal of Fisheries Management, Volume 22, Issue 1, 2002

Performance of Barbed and Barbless Hooks in a Marine Recreational Fishery

"...... anglers landed 22% more fish with barbed hooks. ...... barbless hooks probably did not reduce hooking mortality and conferred only slight benefits at the expense of reduced catches."[/b]

Performance of Barbed and Barbless Hooks in a Marine Recreational Fishery


Barnhart R.A., 1990: Comparison of steelhead caught and lost by anglers using flies with barbed or barbless hooks in the klamath river california usa. California Fish & Game. 76(1): 43-45

"Klamath River anglers lost fewer steelhead Oncorhynchus mykiss on barbed hooks than on barbless hooks, regardless of fish size."

Comparison of steelhead caught and lost by anglers using flies with barbed or barbless hooks in the klamath river california usa

Here's table from a published study in the North American Journal of Fisheries Management, 24:1309-1321,2004 in an Alaskan Rainbow Trout C&R fishery. For every type of hook and using every type of equipment, more fish were lost with barbless hooks vs hooks. On the other side of the coin there were more fish injuries with barbed hooks.

https://alaska.usgs.gov/products/pubs/2004/2004_Meka_NAJFM_24.pdf

 

[jayw2942]

Thanks silver for the information. I wasn't worried to much of the barb vs barbless. To clarify a new fly fishing buddy mentioned that my size 18 pheasant tails didn't have much hook gape. Then i did some research and found pheasant tails tied on a gaped hook but was wondering if any of yall have noticed any difference between the two types.

 

[scotty macfly]

Whatever gape you have the most confidence in, use it. I like a wide gape myself.

 

[flav]

I like wide gape hooks and think I hook more fish with them. I have no proof, of course, but I'm still a fan.

 

[silver creek]

Thanks silver for the information. I wasn't worried to much of the barb vs barbless. To clarify a new fly fishing buddy mentioned that my size 18 pheasant tails didn't have much hook gape. Then i did some research and found pheasant tails tied on a gaped hook but was wondering if any of yall have noticed any difference between the two types.

There definitely is a difference in hookups. The hooking gape does matter.

The most infamous hook for a poor shape and a gape to hook length ratio is the TMC 200R. This tight gape resulted in poor hooking on small flies. I would miss fish constantly on the smaller patterns 18 and 20s tied on this hook.

Look at the bare hook and a cranefly pattern tied on the hook that I grabbed off the internet. I have boxes of these hooks I will never use. These hooks were very popular back in the 80's because the shape of the shank mimicked the natural curve of a mayfly nymph and I tied PT patterns on this hook.

They were also used for hopper dry flies with the same problem with hookups.

Here is a better hook. Note that the hook gape to hook length ratio is larger. The hook gape for identical length flies will be much wider.

 

[johan851]

Interesting that you mention the TMR 200R as an example of an unproductive hook shape. The only hook I've experienced repeated missed hook sets on is the Daichi equivalent, Daichi 1270. I tied up some stimulators and was using a size 14 or so, and I got so frustrated at repeated strikes without a set that I took the pliers out of my bag and bent the barb open. All of a sudden I started getting hook ups.

Fortunately I wasn't too invested in those, and I switched to the wide gape 1260 version.

 

[scotty macfly]

Even though I do prefer a wide gape, I must add that I am really impressed with hooks that have what they call a beak. Barbless hooks that bend slightly upward at the point securing the holding power. I really have major confidence in these hooks. Firehole Sticks and Partridge Patriot series hooks are the only hooks I use now. If you're not familiar with a beaked hook, here's a look at the Firehole standard dry hook.

Firehole Sticks 419 BL Standard Dry Fly Hook | J. Stockard Fly Fishing

 

[chechem]

I'm still awaiting better data on wide-gape hooks.
Maybe it's because I still don't understand how circle hooks catch fish at all.

 

[silver creek]

I'm still awaiting better data on wide-gape hooks.
Maybe it's because I still don't understand how circle hooks catch fish at all.

Here is a typical circle hook.

Here is a display board of early Hawaiian bone hooks. Note the similarity of some of the shapes to a modern circle hook.

Here is a ancient Maori bone hook from Australia.

Here are hooks from Easter island in the South Pacific

The circle hook is one of the earliest hook designs because the hook is designed so the FISH HOOKS ITSELF!

The fish swallows the bait. The circle “bent back” hook shape prevents the fish from being gut hooked. As the bait is slowly pulled out of the fish or the fish swims away after wallowing the bait, the shank of the hook slips out of the side of the fish’s mouth and this allows the hook point to rotate and slip into the inside edge of the fish mouth. The fish hooks itself!

YouTube

 

[reels]

Personally, I feel like to some degree wide gape hooks have become more of a trend in the fly tying community than really being utilized for their hook characteristics.

I see ties on wide gapes that only utilize 1/2 the shank, leaving a lot of the hook exposed.
For example

Matt Ebbers on Instagram: “More Midge shenanigans! #ebbsforceflies #midge #smokejumper #fireholeoutdoors #flytying #tyingflies #flytyingjunkie #flytyingporn…”

I'm sure these patterns can catch fish (and it's a very cool tie), but in more pressured waters trout very well may pass that pattern up after seeing all the metal exposed.

Also as others have mentioned, I actually find wide gape hooks to not stay as well; they hook-up, but seem easier to shake loose during the fight.

For these reasons I've started moving away from wide gape hooks generally speaking (and I only use barbless).

I do still use a wide gape when the tie calls for it; for example an extended body hopper were the hook is mid-body and needs to clear the foam.
Or if I do use wide gape for a nymph or general pattern I will carry the material down the bend to hide some of that metal.

Sorry, not trying to bash on wide gape; just sharing my $0.02.

 

[johan851]

Interesting (and extreme) example, thanks.

If only it was possible to get actual data on "ease of shaking" a hook. I've heard anecdotally that most people feel like a scud-style hook, especially with an offset point, is much harder to shake. If that's someone's philosophy, I can see it easily leading to an example like the one you shared.

I'm interested to try the Firehole hooks when my current supplies start to run out.

 

[cb3fish]

First off I think the answer is it depends on what fish and what size hook. Lets say i was fishing for trout and using a size 20 Adams I would certainly think a larger gape hook would make a better purchase and therefore be the best bet? If i was fishing the saltwater for let's say Tarpon the large gape wouldn't make much difference it would be the angle of the point where a short sharp point works best, same as Bill fish. Now Dorado and let's say Rooster's have a real soft mouth a larger gape wouldn't be a bad ideal at all...I hope you get my point CB

 

[huronfly]

I like a nice wide gape on my swing hooks for steelhead for many reasons... but I don't use them much on trout as I find they can hook through the upper mouth into small trout's brain or through the eye and kill them. If I fished more smaller flies I would consider it, but I rarely go smaller than a size 16 or 18. I don't seem to lose too many fish on a standard hook so that is what I continue to use.

 

[ifitswims]

Competitive fly angling brought about the rapid rise in wide gape hooks. They hook fish better.

 

[kevind62]

Being a saltwater and freshwater "conventional" style fisherman for the better part of 45 years I'll say it's not inasmuch the gape of the hook as it is the design of the hook as far as holding. We can argue all day about hook setting. There are as many different "techniques" just about as there are fisherman. (most are variations of basic techniques). One thing I've learned for certain with fly fishing for cold water mountain river trout is the hook set is definitely different. I totally agree with BigJim on the fact so many anglers attempt to set the hook too quick. (speaking of warm water species) For both salt and fresh water (warm water) fish, they're very aggressive for the most part and are extremely competitive when it comes to feeding. If they feel their "meal" is threatened in any way they tend to bite down harder and move the food further in to their mouth. Some fish when feeding in a frenzy will immediately swallow the bait. This is where you get a lot of your throat hook sets that generally kill the fish. It happens also if you wait too long to set the hook. Ok if you're fishing for table fare, not ok if you're trying to practice catch & release. There is a timing factor and it can vary from day to day, fish to fish, time of year, and on and on and on and on......... It's a learning curve that you have to practice every time you go out. I know this is a lot about feeding habits but it has merit to the point. For warm water fish once the fish makes it's initial "hit" you can slowly tighten the line and hold tension. The "generally" causes the fish to bite down harder and suck the bait in a little more. It "appears" the fish thinks another fish (or something) is trying to steal it's meal. (since no one has ever actually interviewed a fish to ask why they do this it's a matter of opinion between fisherman and biologists) This gives the greatest chance for a good hook set. Watch and talk to experienced speckled trout, redfish, and bass fisherman. You'll see that "waiting" period before setting the hook. If you set too soon and miss, the reason the majority of the time is the fish has the bait in it's mouth but not the hook, or the hook is pretty much at the edge of the fish's mouth and you simply snatch it out.

Now to these crazy, finicky mountain trout species. These critters don't give you that option. They tend to feed on "taste" vs action like their warm water cousins. Although they can be aggressive, they seem to know fairly quick that what's in their mouth is not food and spit it out. I learned this very early on from watch McNerney reel in fish after fish as I watched my indicator float happily down the river cast after cast. You've got to be focused and "quick on the stick" with these fellas.

A key and general rule of thumb for a good hook set is "direction". And it varies from water condition, species, and preference. This rule of thumb varies from fisherman to fisherman for the most part. Some swear by setting the hook in a "sideways" motion while others swear by a "straight upward" hook set. I will say for myself that either way will work with warm water fish. For these cold water critters (speaking only for myself) I find the straight upward hook set caused me to miss more fish than not. These "river fish" give a slight advantage to the fisherman. It's fairly easy to figure out witch way the fish is facing when the fish hits just by where you're standing in the river as to the location of the fish in the current. (let me state here before someone pipes in, this is nymphing, not dry flies in pocket water.) This makes it much easier to make that "sideways" hook set.

Enough on that and to the point of the hook. (no pun intended) For holding fish, I personally don't think it's as much the gape as it is the design. A few different factors here. A straight "J" hook probably gives the fish the greatest advantage of shaking the hook simply due to design. A scud hook gives the fisherman a slight advantage. The shape of the hook in conjunction with the line tension causes the hook point to press harder in to the fish. A down eye J hook does the same. A down eye scud hook does this even greater. Which, in my opinion, gives you the greatest chance to hold a fish once hooked. It's kind of the same principle of the "circle" hook. The tension drives the hook point deeper in to the fish's flesh and is "less" likely to come out when the fish shakes and thrashes.

DISCLAIMER: These opinions and views are that of only this fisherman and not necessarily the views or opinions of this forum or it's moderators.

 

[sparsegraystubble]

I have been tying a bunch of woven body nymphs on a variety of hooks and sizes. The wide gape hooks are much easier for that kind of tie because there is less chance of snagging the weaving floss or tying thread on the point of the hook.

But I believe that small, light wire hooks with wide gapes are more likely to straighten while fighting fish.

Don