Of Simms Wading Staffs & Boot Cleats...............

Ard

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While browsing threads I couldn't help noticing that the 'Help I'm Overthinking Wading Staffs' thread was brought back to life. I considered just replying on the existing thread but then realized I had written a fairly full post and decided to share my thoughts with the General Discussion viewership.

Here we go,

I have no stake in the company but as always I disagree with the assessment of some members regarding the Simms wading staff. In the most recent entry onto the aforementioned thread the term 'balance' surfaced and I had some thoughts on that point.

I believe that balance is essential when wading a dangerous area. Just this week I traversed many times through deep and swift conditions while using the staff as my aid. As always the staff did exactly what I expected from it by providing added balance to me while I carefully searched the rocky bottom for my next solid foot hold. I would submit to anyone reading this that 'balance' is crucial when wading streams and rivers.

Another phrase that stood out to me in the post about the Simms staff was 'safety equipment'. I have included the boot stud topic into this opinion because it too is an oft visited topic among the membership here. I do not consider studs on my boots or a wading staff to be safety equipment, at this point in my life of fishing rivers and creeks I believe that my safety equipment is between my ears and I try to utilize it throughout each days fishing. When the time comes that I realize that I can no longer cross the swift rocky stuff due to physical limitations I will abstain from trying to do so staff or no staff. Currently my boot cleats and staff are balance and traction aids and not the end all and be all of my personal safety or well being whilst I wade in difficult conditions.

When I am out there somewhere in South Central Alaska fishing, walking, wading these rivers these ongoing discussions about boot studs and staffs do not escape my mind. Just this Tuesday as I crossed a river I was acutely conscious of the grip my boots had with the bottom rubble. As I trod forward I felt each footfall and reflected on discussions where people seem want or expect iron clad traction while engaged with some of the most unstable strata that a person can endeavor to walk upon without slipping to some extent. At the same time that I am doing this careful walk I reflect on my 42 year long streak of having not fallen down while wading across a river and must wonder what has led to such a long record of safe crossings.

There were falls of course, I remember falling down while seeking egress from the Salmon River NY back in fall of 1994. It occurred after actually exiting the water onto a large flat slab of rock tilted at perhaps a 30 degree angle back toward the water and yes I was almost at the top when I slipped. I belly flopped onto the stone slab and slid backward into the water. The result was that I continued to slide into water on my stomach until I was on level strata and could gain my knees and then stand. I dipped water into the front of my waders and had to walk back to the truck for dry clothes...….. Cleats? Check. Staff? Yes but on my belt, a Folstaff. Safety equipment functioning between ears? No, it was still in the programming stage I'd guess.

Next good fall occurred but without water being involved although within sight. 1996 and rock hopping through Rip Rap along the bend of a creek where the limestone boulders had been placed to stop the erosion which bordered a secondary roadway. I took a long step between two giant boulders, long even for a guy 6'5' who was still involved in sports to an extent. Once both feet landed I began to slide. The carbide studs on my Orvis Hennery's Fork boots protruded enough that the Vibram soles didn't have a grip and it was like being on ice. I tumbled into the crevasse between two large limestone boulder size rocks and it hurt a lot. Not enough to stop my fishing but enough to go into the brains safety files under the Do Not Do Again category.

Last fall in Alaska happened about 6 years ago while getting out of my boat. I had parked in about 20 inches of water and anchored. Wearing sandals, water shorts and no shirt I stepped out into the river. When I attempted to swing the inboard leg over the gunwale I caught the top and subsequently had a full submersion event. I was fortunate that it was in the upper 70's and sunny so aside from cussing my poor agility I shrugged it off.

But wading, that's another story. Wading while wearing waders and jackets suggests to me conditions wherein it would be inconvenient at the very least and possibly dangerous to fall in and go for a ride with the current. My suggestion to anyone who has bared through all this rambling I've typed out is this. Do not rely on studs or staffs as your safety equipment. Use common sense, know your limitations and rely on traction aids and balance aids as exactly that, tools or items that will help you to have safe and enjoyable outings wherever they may lead you.

It's been working for me for a very long time.

And since I have this...………..



Tuesday while making my way back upriver toward my little campsite (truck) I stopped to rest my aging and abused knees. I unclipped my staff from the retractor tether I got with it and propped it and that sweat old bamboo rod against a branch. I was on a large gravel bar island formed due to the low water and thus in-between branches of the river at this place. The photo was taken just because I had a camera handy. That's one of those carbon fiber staffs and I do not travel without it.

And this is what the bottom of my boots look like, somehow I don't fall into rivers.

 

MichaelCPA

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Great post.

I am a newbie and have scared myself this year in high water, slipped and almost was washed into a channel. Carbide studded boots, waders, i felt like rocks in a garbage bag.

With a new baby at home, needed to smarten up. Studs (aluminum) always, and a staff. Balance and check footings. It is deceivingly easy to wade downriver up to your waist, but turn around it is a very different story. Leaning into current makes your body a hydroplane and footing is lost.

My staff is an aluminum ski pole ($5 from the bin) with carbide tip, strapped to me with a zinger.
 

wjlapier

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I have the star cleats for my G3 boots. And now I use a Fishpond wading stick--the one I started with and lost. I bought another when they went on sale. I always use a wading stick. Best wading stick I've used so far. As for the cleats--eh. I think the Korkers with felt and studs were better, but the Simms boots are very comfortable and they do fine most of the time. I bet the Simms felt bottom with studs would be similar to the Korkers. Like you said, gotta use that thing between the ears.
 

Ard

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I used to go deep when I was young, something we don't consider is that once over the waist belt we become buoyant and when that happens keeping a grip with the soles of the feet is more difficult. You can actually be carried down current because of the conditions I just described so keep it in mind.

Readers may think I'm just talking hot air but I actually think a lot about my immediate conditions especially when fishing. Call it mitigation planning but I think about how I'd react if I were rushed by a bear from the bush along the waters edge. What would I do? Would I scream and be a victim or would I act on things I've thought of a hundred times? Hands still free - get that can of spray loose and set it off no matter where it goes...…. Fall in and waders fill? Take deep breath and get rid of boots quickly if it looks like a gonna die situation. Get the waders off no matter what if they are going to drag me under, or die trying.

There are so many things that we can get into once we wander away from crowds and civilization, you gotta consider how you would deal with the worst I guess. I always leave a travel plan with my management staff (Nancy) and she knows when I should either check in or return from a trip.

The staff and cleats are just part of a whole. The bear spray and other means more lethal are the last resort but really bears are becoming scarce in my range. A brown bear hunt sells for $20.000.00 and that has put them in the seldom seen category in the past ten years. That doesn't mean I remove them from consideration, the tracks I came across Tuesday were a couple days old but confirmed that there are still bears.

If you are in snake country which I fished in for many years that opens another window of risk. I learned to identify snake habitat and that was a huge factor in my being able to see them before they were a threat of any sort. The list goes on and on so we all have to identify our own priorities when out there.
 

ia_trouter

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I don't really have a dog in this "fight" but the debate won't seem to go away so I'll throw in my two cents finally. I don't own a staff, there is practically nowhere in the Driftless you'd need one unless you are just wading too deep, or you are severely limited on our feet. That water is very scarce here. That said, I have waded AK many hours. At first it's more than a bit unnerving in faster water with round freestone the size of softballs. The first hour or so was like "Oh wow, I am standing in water only knee deep and this is pretty challenging". My back has been junk for decades, and my hips fading fast as well. I have used the OPs staffs, both Folstaff and Simms. The Folstaff is clearly stronger, though I found it's large diameter quite annoying as it catches water during those times the need for a staff was less. Annoying enough to "accidentally forget" it and be told I shuold probably not leave it in the boat on water I don't know. The Simms satff was fine too. Far more convenient to carry and use due to it light weight and smaller diameter. v I found it very adequate for this 175# guy.

In the end it was about footing, balance, upper leg strength, and not being too overweight for my frame I suppose was a factor. For me, the weakness is clearly upper leg (hip) strength. When one foot is on a rolling rock, I found I better be able to support myself with the other in the current, and a staff just for balance. It really was a matter of knowing when I needed to take two steps back and enjoy fishing in an obviously more safe situation. My upper leg strength used to be an attribute. And now it isn't. It truly is about knowing my CURRENT limitations. What I could do 25 years ago is now irrelevant, and no staff is going to correct it. I've never taken a swim while fly fishing, and don't intend to push my luck intentionally.

Bottom line, I can stick a steel fence post in the ground and bend it if I lean on it with all my weight. A truly big man would find that an even easier feat. That's not the function of a wading staff IMO. It's a "cane", not a lever.
 

zjory

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I’d be interested to see pictures of rivers you all are wading. I fall in the river pretty regularly this time of year, and since I’m wet wading and it’s warm I don’t really consider it an issue. Guessing it’s because I’m just wading much smaller water.
 

wthorpe

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I like Folstaff staffs and Simms not so much. If anyone cares i have covered this in previous posts. More important, Simms customer service on the staffs was appalling to me: We will send you a new one. Oh, and [after you move across the country for 9 months] we need a photo of the broken one that is now back in your house back in Montana where you wont go for 9 months. Again, i have covered it before, and will let it go (sorta).

Wife and i are great enthusiasts for the simms waders and boots, 4 or 5 pairs of each over 20 years. They have responded wonderfully on customer service for all of our wader concerns -- other than the set of waders i sent in after using them for 6 years and when they called me they said you have 200 holes in the butt and legs; what do you do scoot around on rocks on your butt. Me: Well, yes, dont you? And candidly, they had me on that one.

Currently, i have complained to them about a busted zipper on the waterproof hip pack. Simms: send it to us and we will look at it and repair or replace. Me: Well, great. I am only in MT two more weeks; shall i fish with the Patagonia pack yours replaced in the meantime while you decide what if anything to do? Or can you just send me a new one asap so i have one to fish with the next two weeks as i planned? Simms: well send us some photos of busted zipper and we will get back to you. Me: okay, photos sent. Now what? My suspicion is that the zipper pulls on their expensive waterproof hip packs are cheap/defective. i will see -- and report next step.

My thus far takeaway: truly great waders and boots, and other stuff, well maybe not so much.
 

scotty macfly

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I’d be interested to see pictures of rivers you all are wading. I fall in the river pretty regularly this time of year, and since I’m wet wading and it’s warm I don’t really consider it an issue. Guessing it’s because I’m just wading much smaller water.
Give yourself another twenty years, then you'll understand. :D

I like your idea about showing the rivers we fish. I'd post a few, but you and I fish the same waters, ha ha.
 

Ard

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I can provide a baseline for difficulty, in the past 20 years of experience I'd rate the Rogue River from Griffin Park and down as being one of the most difficult I've trod in. Slick with all size rock from cobble to boat busters at nearly every step. Current isn't a dog there either.

Next is hard to say, the Talachulitna in the canyon area is tough, the Kenai always a danger, current speed, depth and the size of the bottom rubble factor in greatly. The Tal for instance has no uniform size when it comes to the rocks, they range from softball size to boulders I can't straddle even with the ultra long legs. They are interspersed and the current is heavy. The Talkeetna below the confluence of Clear Creek is a man trap, same thing with big round stone and heavy water.

The creek in this part of the state that has racked up the largest body count would be the lower end of Willow Creek from about 1/2 mile above the Susitna and down to the mouth. Very heavy current and deep buckets below each crossing area...……..

I don't have photos but have waded about every state you can name that has swift rivers and the Thompson isn't among the worst I can remember. The North Umpqua is another that demands respect and is definitely in the top 20 as far as threat level I can bring to mind on the spur of the moment.

By the way, this post set a record! In all the combined posts across this and other forums, nearly 30,000 over 12 years I've never mentioned that many rivers & creeks by name save for the Kenai. I'd like to make clear that I do not fish in any of them because there are no fish in any of them, I've only waded in them to test my cleats and staffs :)
 
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wjlapier

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I should add that Simms did send me two pucks of the star cleats free after I asked them about a pattern on the sole that would be best.

Sharing photos of our rivers we fish is a great idea. I wonder that myself sometimes when someone post about where they fish ( not giving out secret spots of course ).

Actually I took a bunch of photos today. This is the same river I always fish but two different spots. It was pretty fun and exciting to catch fish someplace other than the usual spots.
 

tcorfey

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Wading is wonderful but can also be dangerous. As Ard said Staffs and cleats and or felt can help but you need to be smart about it.

Here are some samples of rivers that I fish and wade: (not my photos)
McCloud
DSC_00733.jpg
Upper Sacramento
v4VlCX0.jpg
Stanislaus
5ef72b166081906701bfb05bf9f4f622.jpg
Lower Merced
lower_merced_1.jpg
Pit River 3
2018-07-08 14.59.47.jpg


Can you imagine that before all the dams in CA all of these rivers would become full of Coho, Chinook and Steelhead. Some had Bull trout too.

Regards,

Tim C.
 
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strmanglr scott

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I bought a wading staff and used it once.

I was in the strongest current I've ever been in and got stuck. I wasn't taking anymore steps forward which was tougher current and I didn't wnt to turn around. The river was stained, I couldn't see the bottom and the bottom was made up of sand and rocks about 2/3 the size of a basketball. Never been so freaked out in a river before or since.

When I finally got out after many baby steps I collapsed my staff, threw it in the trunk and have yet to use it since. My thoughts are, I'm never gonna be in a situation anywhere near that gnarly again. I don't need a staff.

I don't mess around with treacherous wading anymore. It gets remotely sketchy, I move to safer spot or get out and walk around it.

Most of the rivers I fish are gravel and sand. There are some rocks but nothing like out west.

So a staff is more cumbersome than what it's worth to carry for me.
 

jeep.ster

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And this is what the bottom of my boots look like, somehow I don't fall into rivers.

I wish my simms boa's had a uniform outer pattern for star studs like your boots have. I had to take my stars off and put studs on. I had sore spots on my foot from the stars being too far inward and having such larger, harder points of impact on my feet than a stud has.

I have my longtime folstaf and a brand new simms wading staff. I'm still falling.
 

Ard

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Here's an example of a typical wading situation.



When we are not caught in the worst drought in history here I often have to find areas shielded from the current like below this tiny island. The branch of water you see upstream is half the river, the main stem is on the right and it splits around a much larger island.

The area below this place is where the 2 channels join and they produce a long seam of upwelling water where the salmon pull in to plot their next move upriver. When the water is up to normal levels like in the picture you are stepping out into about 20 inches of depth with cobble bottom. As you move downstream the current gets fierce and you must be careful.

I'm looking for more photos of rivers but many are of huge rivers that are hard to interpret.
 

ia_trouter

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I can provide a baseline for difficulty, in the past 20 years of experience I'd rate the Rogue River from Griffin Park and down as being one of the most difficult I've trod in. Slick with all size rock from cobble to boat busters at nearly every step. Current isn't a dog there either.

Next is hard to say, the Talachulitna in the canyon area is tough, the Kenai always a danger, current speed, depth and the size of the bottom rubble factor in greatly. The Tal for instance has no uniform size when it comes to the rocks, they range from softball size to boulders I can't straddle even with the ultra long legs. They are interspersed and the current is heavy. The Talkeetna below the confluence of Clear Creek is a man trap, same thing with big round stone and heavy water.

The creek in this part of the state that has racked up the largest body count would be the lower end of Willow Creek from about 1/2 mile above the Susitna and down to the mouth. Very heavy current and deep buckets below each crossing area...……..

I don't have photos but have waded about every state you can name that has swift rivers and the Thompson isn't among the worst I can remember. The North Umpqua is another that demands respect and is definitely in the top 20 as far as threat level I can bring to mind on the spur of the moment.

By the way, this post set a record! In all the combined posts across this and other forums, nearly 30,000 over 12 years I've never mentioned that many rivers & creeks by name save for the Kenai. I'd like to make clear that I do not fish in any of them because there are no fish in any of them, I've only waded in them to test my cleats and staffs :)
Not your intention, but this post truly made me feel a little less inadequate as a wader. You just named all the water that ever made me feel truly uneasy. I found it unnerving at times, but I had no idea it was actually challenging water for a real wader. I haven't fished out West. What I perceived as very fast water and loose substrate sure makes it tough.

Except one creek in Iowa of all places. The water had eroded all the way through the limestone base. I was wading chest high and found the muck bottom. Steep banks and wading was the only real option to move up the creek. I had no staff and it wouldn't have helped. I thought I was going to drown and there was nobody anywhere nearby to notice. They moved the channel some with a backhoe eventually but it was only to keep the stream from getting so muddy. I eventually got to the bank somehow and breathed a sigh of relief.

And congrats on 30K posts.
 

wjlapier

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This was from a couple of days ago. I'm at the end of my hike and resting on a log that is lying across the river. Water level is very low or I wouldn't be this far upstream from where I started. My first entry into this area was high brush and a steep bank of about 6ft or so dropping from the road. Another short walk and another drop into the river which was thigh high where I crossed. A few more crossings as I made my way upstream and I ended up at this point. I wouldn't attempt this in early summer. In fact, the usual places I fish on this river I didn't cross until the level dropped some. Amazing what 4-6 inches of level drop can do to current speed.

Probably typical rocks like most western rivers. Some ankle twisters but thankfully I have the new to me G3 boots so the ankles are tight. Shifting rocks underfoot is more of a problem than slipper rocks. The other problem for me is a knee that needs to be replaced.

 

sweetandsalt

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Wow, If only all of these posts were in the original Overthinking Staffs thread we would be way closer to our goal of 20 pages!

Not that long ago, I would wade the greased bowling balls of the Madison, the irregularly carved basalt of the Deschutes or the slick slabs of the North Umpqua or Salmon River...sometimes with no staff at all and always carrying a Nikon in a chest holster. Not only did I prefer not to drown but Nikon would become cross with me for soaking my camera and lenses! Sure I was cautious and anchored my front foot before lifting my rear.

After the false alarm and wide spread misinformation about "Whirling Disease" many wading boot makers marketed non-absorbent rubber soles as a replacement for traditional felt. I wrote an article at the time about testing traction. With no rod or vest, I donned a felt and rubber soled boot, one on each foot, and waded across a known section of rocky river. Then repeated with studded felt and studded rubber. Felt was better than the rubber, studded rubber was better than the plain felt and studded felt was the best. I concluded that protecting our waterways from the alleged spread of whirling disease and didymo algae with the alternative being the drowned, rotting corpses of fly fisherman polluting our rivers suggested that carbide imbedded studs in felt was the way to go for difficult to wade rivers. And I stuck with Patagonia studded felt soled boots as many of my friends went to rubber soles. More recently, Dillon and famed Madison angler and monster streamer designer Kelly Gallup convinced me that Patagonia's decision to go with soft aluminum barred rubber soled Foot Tractors provided better traction yet and they are correct, so I have been donning my first ever rubber soled boots for wading the last few seasons and they work very well.

I no longer choose to wade the Madison and some of those others though. Age has begun to catch up on me and my knees, one fake, one bad and sometimes sore hips have that space between my ears electing to fish more placid and less treacherous bottomed rivers which I prefer the fishing on anyway. I've also realized that avoiding a swim and DSLR dunking is aided by not only grippy wide fitting boots but a staff as well. Now it is legitimate to perceive differently whether a staff is a balancing accessory or safety equipment. I find myself frequently leaning into my staff crossing a waist deep channel with current and its vigorous vibration is a bit disconcerting. For me personally, a staff is safety gear or, honestly, when not required I'd rather leave it in the truck...and do on placid small waters.

I like Simms, have no negative experience with them other that their discontinuing some of the best fishermans' hats on the market and replacing them with ordinary "trucker " caps. Their made in Montana waders are among the best and are what I wear. They claim their $100 aluminum staff is durable; my admittedly heavy duty usage indicates otherwise...during a three week lifespan.

Just for fun and I'm NOT suggesting this is my solution, in fact I'm researching superior performing alternatives, here below on the left is my "failed" $100 Simms staff and on the right, given to me for free by a friend running a fly shop who bought several but his staff felt they vibrated too much is a $25 Singda Trekking staff with cork handle adjustable length, strong internal cord just like the Simms and a carbide tipped end.

T19 080 Simms&Singda Polls s.jpg
 
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Unknownflyman

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Yes it was Sweet&Salt that described the definition very articulately for me. Wading assistance VS Safety Gear.

I read that and thought, I view Staffs and Spikes as safety gear only, because I only use these items in special situations.

As I had posted in the 17.5 page thread, I don't use wading staffs only in dire looking situations. Also I only studded my Simms boots with alumibite studs for fishing the Torne river in Sweden which one salmon fly fisherman unfortunately died a month or so after I fished it.

My good friend Tim Pantzlaff (Speyco) makes solid wading staffs for such conditions as he fishes the St Mary`s quite a bit and also uses special traction control for special conditions. He is very serious about wading, we have had good discussions about the St. Mary`s, Another river where its easy to die.


I am lucky enough to now to be middle aged and in good shape, where I don't need this stuff on most of my adventures.

In Sweden I really felt those alumibite studs saved my life, while I didn't use a wading staff, it was not lost on me in that giant swift river the one mishap would result in death. My Danish friends Lars and Henrick say to me, Steve this place not for kids or screwing around.

Looking back some of the risky wading I did in pursuit of the largest wild salmon in the world, makes me a little ill, in my minds eye I can now see the abyss and Davey Jones locker, where my spikes groaned clinging to the last big rock on a run way out on rock bar, on the edge of blackness and deep water below me for miles.

I just need to get out 100` more feet to that next run.......


I admit I got panicky a few times, fast whitewater, current and large boulders, and turning around throws everything off... and no path forward..... that feeling of float in waist deep water and bouncing but the current is only going to take you out away to the depths... oh yeah its a bad head trip.


So that's how I view wading equipment.
 
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