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  1. Default Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    I was fishing on the Bitterroot not too far from Missoula when I turned around and saw a black bear. My dog, who was not on a leash, chased the bear. Luckily, the bear got away, but now I am concerned that the next time my dog sees a bear he and I won't be so lucky.

    This morning a woman told me she uses a shock collar in case her dog chases wildlife.

    Do any of you folks use a shock collar? If so, would it be a good way to keep my dog from chasing bears or Moose?

    Randy

  2. #2

    Default Re: Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    Quote Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post
    I was fishing on the Bitterroot not too far from Missoula when I turned around and saw a black bear. My dog, who was not on a leash, chased the bear. Luckily, the bear got away, but now I am concerned that the next time my dog sees a bear he and I won't be so lucky.

    This morning a woman told me she uses a shock collar in case her dog chases wildlife.

    Do any of you folks use a shock collar? If so, would it be a good way to keep my dog from chasing bears or Moose?

    Randy
    yes, they work great! after a while I transitioned from the shock mode to using the tone mode..so now if my catahoula chases a buck I just press the "tone" button and she hears a beep and comes back to me...shock collars AKA "e-collars" are very humane when used properly...trainers who do not believe in them are ignorant IMO...do you raise your children with praise only? no...there are consequences for bad behavior..it is up to us to train and protect our dogs...of course in our new society where all kids playing soccer deserve a participation trophy any form of correction gets vilified...E COLLARS work great..
    this is what I use...

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  4. Default Re: Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    Thanks for your reply. What is a good shock setting to make a dog stop chasing? The max is 10.

    Randy

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    Default Re: Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    I have been raising, training, and competing, bird dogs for 30+ years at a professional level. I will offer some very straight to the point advice.

    A "shock" collar. OR "E-Collar" is a training aid. It allows a trainer to remotely reinforce what a dog has been trained to do or not to do. That's it.

    A dog learns by repetition and reinforcement both positive and negative, but an e-collar can only reinforce what a dog already knows. For instance, if a dog has been walked on a leash or longer "check cord" and has encountered "things" that it has been told to avoid "leave it" command...and "has already learned" that squirrels, cats, skunks, deer, etc. are off limits, then an e-collar can be used to tap them on the shoulder at a distance to reinforce "leave it". If a person uses an e-collar to simply burn a dog down by applying negative experience then the dog may or may not "know" why they are being disciplined - they only know that some thing around their neck is applying pain...they then may associate the collar with that pain. If your dog doesn't run to you when they see the collar come out and associate the collar with "fun times ahead" then you used the collar improperly. My dogs will jocky for position to be the first to get the collar put on. Because the collar is just a tool...a tap on the shoulder...to remind them of what they already learned.

    When first conditioning a dog to an e-collars use, it should be put on snugly but not tight, the stimulation prongs should be of the correct size for the density of the dogs coat, and a trial should be used for the correct MINIMUM stimulation level of the individual dog. IE: start with tone....beep...beep...dog hears beep...gets used to beep.....let the dog simply "wear" the collar for a couple days...remove the collar and give dog a break...e-collars should not ever be left on dog...the prongs will cause severe neck trauma if left long term...repeat this process...two days max at a time, just wearing the collar.....until nothing negative is associated with the collar. Now, at lowest setting with dog by you sitting....apply stimulation...look for ear twitch...slight, slight ear twitch...if you see the twitch..the dog feels the stimulation...stop at that level. Now condition the dog at the lowest level for what it already knows...sit...sit...dog doesn't sit...stimulate the dog WHILE saying sit.....the dog must KNOW the command and hear it to associate the stimulation with a known action or it will have little result - just confusion for the dog. When stronger reinforcement is needed....like keeping a dog from running deer or other wildlife....you can GRADUALLY turn up the stimulation...a dog should never squeal and growl or bite at a collar's stimulation....if so...it is way too high. Use the collar on common things until the dog realizes that stimulation means reminder....it reminds them of what they already know. Go to places with a collar and leash or off leash areas....introduce the dog to elements less dangerous that it should leave alone...apply stimulation along WITH a verbal command "leave it"...etc. The dog will eventually understand the stimulation and know it means business and right now....when using it...consistency is key....now means now...here/come means here/come NOW. Do not waver in a command ever being optional. Good luck. Do yourself a favor and do further reading on collar use too. Used properly, an e-collar is a great training tool.
    Last edited by cooutlaw; 10-04-2019 at 11:36 AM.

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  7. Default Re: Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    Thanks for your reply. So I guess the bottom line, if my dog is not trained with a shock collar, and I just shock him when he runs after a bear, the shock won't deter him from chasing?

    Randy

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    Default Re: Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    Quote Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post
    Thanks for your reply. So I guess the bottom line, if my dog is not trained with a shock collar, and I just shock him when he runs after a bear, the shock won't deter him from chasing?

    Randy
    There is potential the dog will try and outrun the "shock" and run further away.... running from the pain....also the other potential is that the dog will be so startled that it will just hit the ground rolling to get the unknown sting off....leaving the now startled dog easy, and now also handicapped, prey for a larger predator. It may work and the dog may come back or pull off the chase....but it's a very uncalculated risk without properly training. I'd certainly rather have my dog know why it's being stimulated and what it means than to leave it to chance.

  9. #7

    Default Re: Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    Quote Originally Posted by cooutlaw View Post
    I have been raising, training, and competing, bird dogs for 30+ years at a professional level. I will offer some very straight to the point advice.

    A "shock" collar. OR "E-Collar" is a training aid. It allows a trainer to remotely reinforce what a dog has been trained to do or not to do. That's it.

    A dog learns by repetition and reinforcement both positive and negative, but an e-collar can only reinforce what a dog already knows. For instance, if a dog has been walked on a leash or longer "check cord" and has encountered "things" that it has been told to avoid "leave it" command...and "has already learned" that squirrels, cats, skunks, deer, etc. are off limits, then an e-collar can be used to tap them on the shoulder at a distance to reinforce "leave it". If a person uses an e-collar to simply burn a dog down by applying negative experience then the dog may or may not "know" why they are being disciplined - they only know that some thing around their neck is applying pain...they then may associate the collar with that pain. If your dog doesn't run to you when they see the collar come out and associate the collar with "fun times ahead" then you used the collar improperly. My dogs will jocky for position to be the first to get the collar put on. Because the collar is just a tool...a tap on the shoulder...to remind them of what they already learned.

    When first conditioning a dog to an e-collars use, it should be put on snugly but not tight, the stimulation prongs should be of the correct size for the density of the dogs coat, and a trial should be used for the correct MINIMUM stimulation level of the individual dog. IE: start with tone....beep...beep...dog hears beep...gets used to beep.....let the dog simply "wear" the collar for a couple days...remove the collar and give dog a break...e-collars should not ever be left on dog...the prongs will cause severe neck trauma if left long term...repeat this process...two days max at a time, just wearing the collar.....until nothing negative is associated with the collar. Now, at lowest setting with dog by you sitting....apply stimulation...look for ear twitch...slight, slight ear twitch...if you see the twitch..the dog feels the stimulation...stop at that level. Now condition the dog at the lowest level for what it already knows...sit...sit...dog doesn't sit...stimulate the dog WHILE saying sit.....the dog must KNOW the command and hear it to associate the stimulation with a known action or it will have little result - just confusion for the dog. When stronger reinforcement is needed....like keeping a dog from running deer or other wildlife....you can GRADUALLY turn up the stimulation...a dog should never squeal and growl or bite at a collar's stimulation....if so...it is way too high. Use the collar on common things until the dog realizes that stimulation means reminder....it reminds them of what they already know. Go to places with a collar and leash or off leash areas....introduce the dog to elements less dangerous that it should leave alone...apply stimulation along WITH a verbal command "leave it"...etc. The dog will eventually understand the stimulation and know it means business and right now....when using it...consistency is key....now means now...here/come means here/come NOW. Do not waver in a command ever being optional. Good luck. Do yourself a favor and do further reading on collar use too. Used properly, an e-collar is a great training tool.
    I agree 100% with EVERYTHING you said....every command my dog learned was WITHOUT the e-collar....every command should be learned with positive reinforcement...a dog should never be corrected because the owner/trainer fails to communicate what is expected of the dog.....I only use it when I am 100% positive the dog is willingly refusing to obey me and never as a punishment....it is more being used as a distraction from the initial distraction. The only time I "zap" the hell out of her is if she gets too close to a snake, especially a venomous one...then I want her to associate REAL pain with a snake.....my dog associates the e-collar with being something positive because if means she is going outdoors....

  10. #8

    Default Re: Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    Quote Originally Posted by cooutlaw View Post
    There is potential the dog will try and outrun the "shock" and run further away.... running from the pain....also the other potential is that the dog will be so startled that it will just hit the ground rolling to get the unknown sting off....leaving the now startled dog easy, and now also handicapped, prey for a larger predator. It may work and the dog may come back or pull off the chase....but it's a very uncalculated risk without properly training. I'd certainly rather have my dog know why it's being stimulated and what it means than to leave it to chance.
    once again I agree 100%...I went to a professional certified trainer to teach ME how to use the e-collar only after taking my dog to MANY weeks of positive reinforcement only obedience training with the same trainer....I have seen dogs who are trained by boarding 2 weeks with e-collar trainers and they do not all seem like happy campers to me....I want my dog to come to me because I am , in her world, the greatest source of fun and comfort, and not because she will get zapped if she doesn't......but when used properly e-collars can save dogs lives as well as avoiding harm to people....I demand 100% recall from my dog for her safety, not my ego.....

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  12. #9
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    Default Re: Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    "I demand 100% recall from my dog for her safety, not my ego....." quote: okaloosa

    This is absolutely crucial, and you are spot on in understanding the difference of why. I have trained literally hundreds of bird dogs, pointing and flushing varieties both to the highest of competitive levels. I have worked with about every kind of imaginable owner from group classes to one on ones and first time owners to long veteran bird dog folks. The one thing I can promise is that like their dogs, all owners are different...being able to read an individual dog (or owner) goes a long way in expediting the training process. When professional trainers offer advice, which is rare because doing so leaves interpretation whereas hands on demonstration does not...people who have not seen and experienced extensive training scenarios often have difficulty envisioning the entirety of the thought that is offered in the written word. Further, they have not seen the results personally and do not take the instruction as the exact road map they should follow...they end up varying it to suit their own process and in doing so....get the associated results. For trainers that is job security as we often are called to fix the problem issues the owners created by not listening in the first place. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

    For clarity, none of what I put out here is opinion or suggestion, it is absolutely factual process that has been proven, taught, and rendered gospel by any legitimate professional trainer on the planet.

    I do not like to mention my accomlishments as I believe they should speak for themselves....but on a blind forum....I will quantify my experience for validation of what I speak:

    I have guided, raised, trained, and owned, 13 AKC Master Hunters (including finishing the second youngest of all time), 2 NAVHDA VC's, handfuls of UT's, 5 Field champions, 2 AFC's, 3 NSTRA Field Champions, 2 NAGDA National Champions, as well as training dogs to similar levels for dozens of clients over the years, and bomb, arson, drug dogs for numerous city, county, state and government agencies, and personal protection guard dogs, agility dogs, and upland and waterfowl dogs for average hunters. There is a 15 indoor/outdoor run 1800 square foot, heated and air conditioned kennel facility adjacent to my training fields at my home. Point is....this is not my first rodeo.

    I know a little about fly fishing after 30 years experience and some time guiding and I try and contribute when I can. I know 20 times more about dogs and training than I do about fly fishing. In fact, automotive and dogs are likely the only two things that I ever was close to being a leading expert on. When I say something about either one, it's a safe bet you can take it to the bank.
    Last edited by cooutlaw; 10-04-2019 at 06:24 PM.

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  14. Default Re: Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

    Folks,

    Thanks so, so much for all your help. I really appreciate it.

    Randy

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