odd question

[Wildcat4040]

I had never come across this situation until I took up Fly Fishing and would like to discuss it. The question is catch and relaesa. I've fished in lakes since I was a kid. we abided by the rules and kept the keepers and threw back the small ones. My dad taught me to throw back fish with eggs no matter the size. Now I want you to understand, we took these fish home and ate them. That was the purpose of going fishing. So the old man who wasn't rich could go a day without springing for a meal.
Now I'm reading all I can on fly fishing and I start to hear about barbless hooks...what the heck is that all about, he'll be dead and in my stomach in a few hours, was I supposed to be making his last hours on earth as peaceful as possible? NO, I was supposed to release him back into the river....well if I catch a 14" trout, i'm eatin that bad boy. So the more I read about fly fishing the more I see these clubs promoting catch and release. My question is, who is sponsoring this? The lake I fished at as a kid is still full of fish and everybody takes home their catch and EATS them. I don't hear about anybody using rubber bullets when they shoot a deer! One club was promoting the strech of water they must use and take care of and talked about it like it was their river. I agree the waters need policed and taken care of because generally people have bad habits of leaving litter and the like and I appreciate and am willing to go out and help other people clean up an area. But this possesivness along with the catch and release thing I can't for the life of me understand. I pay money for a State license to hunt for food. With this economy if I can put a nice fish dinner on the table once a week for the cost of that license, I will. I've read some peoples opinions on this and they are die hard catch and release, what is the general opinion of it without starting a war over the issue. Also I don't fish everyday from morning til night, so i'm not cleaning out any rivers of their stock. Thanks for listening and I hope to hear a wide variety about this practice.

 

[Shane Stroud]

Until recent years, I never even thought about wildlife management. For instance, I released the little ones and took the keepers home. And when hunting, I would shoot the first legal deer I saw. Same thing with turkeys. But I have noticed a trend in recent years. People let the little fish and the ones of "prime breeding size" go, keeping only the really big ones. They pass on a 3 year old deer and wait for one larger, maybe 5 years old. We even pass on the turkeys with short beards, waiting for that monster to come strutting along. Yes, people are acting responsibly toward nature. I know there are fanatics out there, and honestly, I think they may be going overboard. But they have a point. If we don't act responsibly, our children may not be able to enjoy the things we take for granted.

 

[peregrines]

Wildcat-

Personally I think your within your rights to catch and eat, where legal, but....

IMHO you should also give some thought to the resource too, so if it's a put and take, hatchery supported fishery, keeping fish may have a lot less impact than a fishery based on wild, naturally reproducing fish. In many cases, they just can't take the pressure if most people kept "their" fish.

It's not just fly fishing. Many gear guys do the catch and release thing- many LM bass anglers for one, and many others, including many surf casters here in the NE for striped bass, steelheaders out west that may keep a fish with clipped fins (stocked) but let the wild ones go.

There are whole fisheries based on catch and release, including tarpon and bone fishing in the keys, and many fisheries have bounced back after closures or more restrictive limits, including redfish, striped bass, and many trout streams.

So if you want to keep a few, fine, but just be aware that doing so can have a bigger impact on some fisheries than on others.

Mark

 

[rmooney]

this is a great topic, i always enjoy a nice friendly debate. i love to eat fish, it is by far my favorite food! but...i only keep what i eat. i do not keep bass because i dont enjoy eating them. also, smallmouth arent as abundant in the areas around me as they used to be. i am an avid flyfisherman, releasing what i wont eat. but i am also an udergraduate student going into limnology/aquatic science and fisheries management. i believe in catch and release, but there is nothing wrong with keping a few fish IF the body of water you are fishing on has a solid population of fish in it. and the people that sponsor catch and release are most likely members of the department of natural resources or other organizations.

 

[Wildcat4040]

Thanks, Those were two good, valid reasons for catch and release. I appreciate your time to explain it. Some people get totally involved in a sport like fishing that they know stocked lakes from a lake that isn't. I don't, I just go fishing without a thought of the lake being stocked by someone or not. I'm not a club member nor do I plan to be so this type of conversation is important to people like me that just fish to catch a few once in a while.
Who is it that determines what waters gets stocked and what are their goals for stocking them (mainly I'm talking about trout)
Thanks

 

[rmooney]

im from wisconsin, so im not sure about other places. but i know here, the department of natural resources will stock lakes with public access. people that live on private lakes need to contact fisheries to stock thier lakes. i wanted to get yellow perch and walleye in a lake i live on, but the lake wouldnt support the walleye without harming the bass population. i learned that after contacting the DNR and local fisheries and talking with them. so im pretty sure public lakes are stocked by DNR or other agencies and private lakes are stocked by seperate fisheries. i might not be 100% correct though.

 

[Wildcat4040]

IF the body of water you are fishing on has a solid population of fish in it. and the people that sponsor catch and release are most likely members of the department of natural resources or other organizations.

How the heck am I supposed to know how many fish are in the water. I think you mean 'Paid employees of the DNR' and as far as the organization go. They to me play an important rollin keeping the waterways clean and the surrounding residents happy to see fishermen come. I know they have people come out there with a six pack and a bag of chips and toss it all on the ground when he left, but people like that are everywhere. I also have seen these clubs get a bit possesive of these 'public' waters when they main them. That's not right, but then again if it weren't for them I probably wouldn't stop to fish there in the first place because it wouldn't be as appealing. Everything has it's good and bad points when people are involved.

 

[Ronnie z]

I think fishing is a great sport.If you pay for a fishing licence catch and release is up to you.This is why they designate areas as cacth and release.

 

[peregrines]

Who is it that determines what waters gets stocked and what are their goals for stocking them (mainly I'm talking about trout)
Thanks

The state DNR will determine that- with input from individual citizens, groups like Trout Unlimited, sportsmen's, enviro groups... and chambers of commerce/local business groups. They'll usually open to receiving input from the public, but have to balance many different points of view and try and manage to the best interests of the resource. It's hard to please everyone, so they'll usually end up taking a lot of heat from somebody regardless of which way they decide.

At least around here, there are a lot of water where access to spawning grounds, or high temps, or fishing pressure makes it unlikely that trout will hold over from year to year, or be able to reproduce.

There are some excellent fisheries that depend heavily on stocking- the Great Lakes salmon and steelhead fishery, many tailwaters and impoundments, and we even have some in urban areas where trout are stocked in the spring and fall where people are encouraged to keep fish because high water temps in the summer will kill them anyway. In addition to encouraging kids and others to get interested in the outdoors, it also can be a big boon to local economies-- some incredible fishing on the Salmon River in NY draws loads of fisherman spending bucks on motels, restaurants etc etc in a basically economically depressed area.

But there are some streams designated as 'wild" where stocking isn't done and catch and release is either required or encouraged to protect naturally reproducing populations. These streams typically have good spawning areas, and stocking is discouraged to protect the genetic strain of those fish so they aren't diluted by genes from hatchery fish. And in some cases native populations can get pushed aside by introduced non-native fish that have been stocked. That has happened a lot to Brook trout here in the East and to cutthroats out west after introduction of rainbows and browns etc. Stocked fish can also be a source of disease that can spread to different watersheds very quickly if diseased fish are introduced. We recently had a problem in a hatchery here in NY, that was spread to a lot of different watersheds through stocking, and one not far from me is shutting down for at least 5 years to ensue adequate decontamination.

It can lead to pretty animated discussions about "native" fish (that occurred naturally in specific regions like brook trout east of the rockies and rainbows and cuts west of the rockies) vs "wild fish" (brown trout, originally from Europe, and rainbows originally from the west but introduced in eastern waters that have established populations from natural spawning), vs "stocked" fish. It leads to some interesting questions like whether wild nonnative brown and rainbow trout should be deliberately poisoned for a stocked native brook trout reintroduced into waters where it originally occurred. This has been a controversy in the Adirondacks where hatchery "heritage strain" brook trout have been reintroduced (by airdrop) into remote ponds.

Mark

 

[rmooney]

great information peregrines! i believe that many of the problems with fish population can be solved by simple aquaculture. many freshwater fish are relatively easy to breed (compared to marine ornamentals) and the dnr employees around me take advantage of fisheries to keep the populations up. so a mixture of stocking lakes with cultured fish combined with moderate catch and release regulations would be the ideal way to keep fish population at a good level.

 

[MrEsox]

You get into a lot of fishing ethics on this kind of thread. Problem is, what is ethics. Even back in college NO one could flat out say what ethics was with out defining it. Ya we all know what it is or have some idea. But what and how do people go about it. Most of the time with fish a size range should be looked at. Smaller fish tend to make up the majority of the population. Problem with having a ton of small fish is lack of food. This past year a walleye lake close to my home got hot. Even took a few nice fish on a fly. Thing is we cannot keep anything under 14". So trying to find a fish of that size was hard. Prob catch several under sized fish before getting a nice one to keep. One thing people forget is how hard it is for a fish to get big. First a fish must find variables to survive...food, space, pH, O2, cover (when small), ability to swim, DNA, etc. All these factors need to be met or over come for a fish to grow. The average survival for a new hatch or stalk of fish is around 10% to survive the first few weeks of life. After that they then become part of the food chain. In some lakes that’s too low for a population to grow since the larger fish in the lake are taking out the smaller fish. Now this is the other side of the coin. Big fish have survived everything and made it to a piont in life that nothing else in the lake is going to eat them. Along with this they are big enough to eat almost anything in their way. But so few of them have survived to get to this point. Back the lake I mentioned earlier. The fish that we were keeping all had one thing in common, they were females and about 90% of them had nothing in their GI track. Later on in the fall before freeze up these little females were had no signs of egg production. To me this shows that smaller fish were not finding enough food and were maturing later then normal in life. Now what good is a lake full of juvi fish? In this lake there are some big eyes. With very clear water I have seen many times large eyes swimming in shallow water looking for food or just sunning them selves. Now if you know enough about ecology you will know what I'm about to say next. The larger fish are the ones that are healthy and able to reproduce making the next gen of fish. The size to a fish often tell their age. Little fish are young, big fish are old. When you have young fish the number and viability of the eggs is low. The biggest fish often are too old to have healthy eggs. It is in between these points that you find a pint that shows age/size/amount/viability at their optimum. It is these fish that need to be protected more then others. The rest of you out there are probably scratching your heads wondering what does this all mean. Simply put lots of little fish that are hungry vs larger fish that can reproduce successfully. Which one would you take? Another good point is what you would eat. A rib eye from an old cow that has had many calves or the 2 year old that has yet to be bread. The better eating animals are always the younger ones. Now I'm not saying to go out and pick up all the fish fry you can and eat them...there has to be a limit. For us our eyes we keep are 14"-18". Trout are no diff. The older fish are not as good eating but put more eggs in the system. But take too many small fish out and your up coming gens will be few and far between. Answer is moderation. Set a standard of the better eating fish that you like. Only keep what you and yours can eat. If you don’t plan on eating it put it back. That’s the nice thing about fishing, you don’t have to kill it when you catch it. A photo and let it go can be done. Deer, upland, geese...shoot one and try and let it go. We all can play a roll in how a water system is shaped...the wild life guys got it easy, the game out there take care of themselves...its us they have to watch or their would be nothing left. In short, you have to limit yourself on what you take since we need big fish as much as we need little fish.

 

[MikeG]

I think C&R practices vary from state to state. In IL (especially around the Chicagoland area) most people throw back their catches due to water quality. I never keep fish from IL unless I am ice fishing out in the farm lands. On another forum where I competed in a rough fish tournament the guy who won it was from Ohio where the term C&R must not be known. He caught about 400-500 bullheads to win the tournament and he kept them all regardless of size. I know many guys who live in texas who fish for carp rarely keep them. Then in Florida this guy who catches dozen of trophy size large mouths a week will keep them.

I am multi species fly fishermen (for you trout fanatics that means I catch fish that are not trout, its quite possible). I catch large mouth and small mouth bass but always throw them back. I catch panfish and throw them back. I catch carp and catfish, which I throw back. I catch muskie and pike, which I throw back. Even when I am up in Canada I get a conservation license which my limit for the day is two fish. That is enough for me to eat. I do not bring fish back anymore because it is a hassle to get through the border with them. Even when I go salmon fishing or steelhead I throw them back.

I am purely C&R but I will not bother someone else who does practice it too.

 

[Wildcat4040]

Yikes, that is a lot of research and knowledge peregrines and Mr E. have and really explains catch and release. I don't really care to know and/or research that much about fishing, I must admit though Fly Fishermen do seem to be more in tune with this problem. These were very enlightening and I did have to read them several times to understand what you guys were saying and I might have to read it several times again. Like I said, not everyone gets into fishing deep enough to think about ecology, I fished to catch food and for enjoyment. Thanks for the enlightenment on what's going on in the eco world. Hey, I like that hunting analogy too!
Also Mr. Esox, as soon as I figure out what the heck size fish you said to keep, i'll try to put it into practice.

 

[Wildcat4040]

I think C&R practices vary from state to state. On another forum where I competed in a rough fish tournament the guy who won it was from Ohio where the term C&R must not be known. QUOTE]

Mike, thanks for chiming in, i'm from Ohio and that explains why I don't know what the heck i'm doing.....we area ruthless bunch....:icon_wink

 

[MikeG]

I think C&R practices vary from state to state. On another forum where I competed in a rough fish tournament the guy who won it was from Ohio where the term C&R must not be known. QUOTE]

Mike, thanks for chiming in, i'm from Ohio and that explains why I don't know what the heck i'm doing.....we area ruthless bunch....:icon_wink

You did not know how to quote properly, if the shoe fits. I am just kidding. But majority of people I talk to from Ohio think I am crazy when I throw fish back. I even go every year on the maumee for the walleye runs and I throw back all the fish I catch. Even the large ones, caught a 30" walleye last year and released it back in the water. The guy 20ft off to the left of me got pissed off and started to verbally assault me. Him and his six buddies forced us off the river. Maybe I just have bad experiences with Ohio boys. :thumbsup:

 

[Wildcat4040]

Geez, now I need to go to quote class too......how did you get that quote in the box???
Mike;
But now you know that my question is sincere. I was truly confused at everyone doing this but to defend myself. There were sites that I was virtually blackballed from because I couldn't figure out why they would be practicing catch and release. This all started when I took up fly fishing, I went to a fly shop in Pennsylvania and wanted to take some lessons. The instructor said they practiced C&R, I said OK I didn't want to keep the fish anyway. Then he asked if I had a PA License, I said what the hell would I need a license for for a one hour classif I have to release the fish. He said no license, no lessons. Now I did get the impression this was a PA law on this stretch of water and not just his rule (I may be wrong) After that I posted on some 'club' sites and told them I wasn't releasing any fish other than if because they were undersized or I met my limit. Holy cow, I got the old 'get off the Maumee' reception you got. But I truly didn't know what they were talking about or the logic behind it. After a winter of reading I do find these clubs to be clannish of the areas the maintain and fish, even though it belongs to the State. I got some good clear explanations of the purpose behind C&R here and understand what to look for while i'm out in the field.

 

[MikeG]

I understand where you are coming from. The best example of catch and release cause and effect in the world of freshwater fishing has to be with muskie fishing. It shows the best example of how C&R can positively effect a population. Look it up!

As for quoting there is a quote button in the top right of each post made, press it sometime.


I know from living in IL, you need a license just to go fishing (if you are over a certain age). I do not live in an area where people necessarily need to fish for food. 90% of people around here fish because it is fun and then release the fish. C&R is also about not filling your limit. Like I said before in Canada I get a conservation license with a limit of 2 fish in possession, the regular license is 6 fish. I cannot eat six fish in one meal and I do not bring any back home. I do not fish for food, I fish for the fun of it. I guess this is more prominent in fly fishing but I still think this has to do with a local notation. Depending on what state you live in. Some states in both forms of fishing practice C&R, in some states it is all about filling your limit, and then in some states it is different also.

Clubs become protected of certain stretches of river because they see it as game fish, fish to catch over and over again. They may catch a fish and years later catch it again when it is much bigger. To them that is fun and why they fish. Bigger is always better. Then some outsider comes in and catches the same fish and keeps it. Of course that club is going to be mad.

I am purely C&R except when I am in Canada.

 

[Wildcat4040]

Mike,
I did hit the quote button but I tried to edit the content and that must have taken it out of the box.
Your post is spoken like a true man that didn't have six kids at home to feed and couldn't afford a hobby that was just for his own satisfaction, fun and function. That was my old man, I had three, and you can bet everything on the table was eatin. As this economy starts to worsen and more people start to lose their jobs, people that hunt and fish will find the alternative by keeping their catches, both fish and game to eat. My kids are grown now and I keep the fish I catch because I only go out once in a while and for that purpose. But I do see your point in sustaining the lakes and rivers by conservation. This thread cleared up the part of which fish to keep and which to release and I can respect that.
BUT that last part which i'll just rephrase instead of quote;
"Clubs become protected of certain stretches of river, that they don't own and my license entitles me to fish, because they see it as game fish, fish to catch over and over again......."
"Then some outsider comes in and catches the same fish and keeps it. Of course that club is going to be mad." I need clarification of what made them "insiders", is it because they took it upon themselves to clean up an area and now feel the right to dictate what happens on that water?
I travel Ohio a lot and when I see a nice lake or river, i'll stop and fish it. You see, me paying State taxes for 35 years and buying a fishing license for 35 years entitles me to do this, as long as I stay within the law of the license. Clubs keep area waters in their neighborhoods clean and healthy and I respect that, but my taxes make that water as much mine as it does theirs, so explain to me what they have a right to be mad about?

 

[adipose]

when i caught my first steely i couldn't believe my eyes and had to show somebody. this happened a couple more times until i realized the thrill wasn't the showing off, it was the cool feeling inside just seeing these great fish. since then i release everything i catch. if i had a family to feed it may be different. so now my wife and i go out for a fish fry every friday,GO FIGURE!!!

 

[Wildcat4040]

Fly Fishermen are a different breed. I am really looking forward to meeting a lot of them and getting into this sport as sincerely as they are. From when I took up Fly fishing last year I have been only a lake fisherman and love to catch the Crappies. I never caught a trout in a river or creek.

I don't want to seem confrontational with my posts and really do consider everyones post to my original question a valuable lesson to the overall sport and respect the fact they took the time to give their opinions. This is not only a great fly fishing site as far as knowledge goes but lessons in the eco balance teamwork and clubs are something I never thought of. Thanks to everyone for their contributions and helping with my education.

Adipose.....I know i'm gonna feel the same way as you when that first big one hits my line. BAM....I can't wait.