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  1. #41

    Default Re: Can modern fly lines make you a better caster? Point, Counter Point

    Quote Originally Posted by dillon View Post
    In regards to the previous post, the guys selling lines in the fly shops aren’t helping matters. Many anglers when buying a new rod take the fly shops recommendation for the line. A friend of mine bought a new Scott Radian a couple years ago. I told him I use the Rio Gold on mine. However, he took the fly shops advice when purchasing the rod and lined it with the Rio Grand. After casting mine and his side by side he bought another line...
    BTW, many say the Radian has a soft tip. No, it just has a “softer” tip than most other high end fast rods, imo...
    When one of my fishing partners bought his new Sage X 590, the shop insisted that he needed to buy a Rio Grand instead of a Gold. All that line does is bog down the tip of a good rod. I still don’t understand why shops do that, and it is very wide spread.

    When I was buying lines for a couple Sage Ones (486 and 590) that same shop wanted me to go for that same Rio Grand. I insisted on Gold for the 590 and SA Amplitude Trout for the 486. Those lines are perfect for my uses. The shop guy told me that the Ones need at least one size overlined.

    I wonder sometimes if it’s because many shop owners also guide and don’t have to work hard if they match their clients up with heavier lines and shorter leaders. The whole idea of the Rio Grand makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

  2. Likes unknownflyman liked this post
  3. #42

    Default Re: Can modern fly lines make you a better caster? Point, Counter Point

    Quote Originally Posted by dillon View Post
    BTW, many say the Radian has a soft tip. No, it just has a “softer” tip than most other high end fast rods, imo...
    Radian actually has a steep fast taper and is best with a RIO Gold. Its issue with its "softer" tip section is not "feel" or "collapse" or anything really detrimental, in fact, likely a positive for dead drifting a nymph rig, the issue is the sense of it being grafted on experienced as a rather abrupt taper transition. There is noting amiss about a fast rod with a moderated tip, Sage Z-Axis was very popular for that exact feature, it is the smoothness of the taper that is at issue. I eagerly await R2 (maybe next year).

  4. Likes unknownflyman liked this post
  5. Default Re: Can modern fly lines make you a better caster? Point, Counter Point

    Yes but my venues are salt flats...better caster for me is do I get the fly to the fish is less than ideal situations...wind, direction, visibility...for fresh streams I cannot say

  6. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    In sight of the Gateway Arch in Illinois
    Posts
    716

    Default Re: Can modern fly lines make you a better caster? Point, Counter Point

    The title question to me asks: What is the difference between skill and performance?

    A highly skilled caster with a perfectly matched line and rod should be able to deliver an outstanding performance (cast).

    Give that same skilled caster a terribly mismatched rod and line, the performance will be less than outstanding.

    If an average caster takes the perfectly matched line and rod, their performance will also be better than with the mismatched combination. It will also boost their confidence and that in and of itself is worth the price of admission. When they make that occasional perfect cast, they will ask how did I do that? They now know that the perfect cast is possible and will work to increase their skill to match that illusive performance.

    So can a fly line make you a better caster, often the answer can be yes. Yes it can.

    Good equipment will always be a path to a better performance. Mismatched, entry level equipment will certainly lengthen the journey to a better performance. The caster with questionable equipment has no idea what the issue is, their skill or their equipment.

    Bob

  7. Likes sweetandsalt, jdwy liked this post
  8. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Show Low, Arizona
    Posts
    160

    Default Re: Can modern fly lines make you a better caster? Point, Counter Point

    Not to be combative Bob, see I’m smiling :- )

    .....but why does the beginner rig have to be mismatched? Many of these beginner rigs are well matched right from the tube. I help out with a veteran group and have cast bunches of these rigs and they cast pretty darn good.

    I’ve also handed my far more expensive rig off to beginners and they don’t cast my well balanced rig any better than their shiny new Orvis Clearwater, Redington Path or TFO.

    iMO the statement should read “An expensive rig can be cast better than a less expensive rig, but it can’t make the caster more skilful.

  9. Likes Hirdy, rusty 54, fishing hobo liked this post
  10. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Cody, WY
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: Can modern fly lines make you a better caster? Point, Counter Point

    Quote Originally Posted by bob3700 View Post
    The title question to me asks: What is the difference between skill and performance?

    A highly skilled caster with a perfectly matched line and rod should be able to deliver an outstanding performance (cast).

    Give that same skilled caster a terribly mismatched rod and line, the performance will be less than outstanding.

    If an average caster takes the perfectly matched line and rod, their performance will also be better than with the mismatched combination. It will also boost their confidence and that in and of itself is worth the price of admission. When they make that occasional perfect cast, they will ask how did I do that? They now know that the perfect cast is possible and will work to increase their skill to match that illusive performance.

    So can a fly line make you a better caster, often the answer can be yes. Yes it can.

    Good equipment will always be a path to a better performance. Mismatched, entry level equipment will certainly lengthen the journey to a better performance. The caster with questionable equipment has no idea what the issue is, their skill or their equipment. Bob
    My thoughts exactly, Bob, but you said it better than myself. No matter what the sport, endeavor is, I've always bought near top of the line equipment then if my "performance" is way worse than the Big Boys, I know where the problem lies, ME.

  11. #47

    Default Re: Can modern fly lines make you a better caster? Point, Counter Point

    In my own angling I put a lot of emphasis on a carefully selected high quality line with a taper optimized for my purposes as well as a well crafted leader. I mostly fish higher end rods too but if forced to choose I'd elect to fish a good mid tier rod with a great line/leader than a top tier rod with a crumby line/leader.

    I too volunteer to assist PHWFF veterans with casting and fishing. We outfit them with modest TFO 9'/#5 outfits mounted with RIO Avid lines and knotless leaders. These rigs perform just fine, are balanced and well matched so as to in no way impede their learning process as a mismatched outfit with a crumby line might. I have individual saltwater lines that cost near as much as one of these total outfits. No question, if I put one of these PHWFF outfits in the hands of an experienced angler he will out fish one of my novice guys or gals with one of my personal Sage, Loomis or Scott rigs in their hands. Refined gear of any sort has its potential extracted by a skilled practitioner.

  12. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    In sight of the Gateway Arch in Illinois
    Posts
    716

    Default Re: Can modern fly lines make you a better caster? Point, Counter Point

    Az,

    I did not feel you were being combative, no sweat.

    My point was that no matter what rod and line you have, if mismatched, will have the caster struggling with their performance.

    You are right on the money when you state that an entry level rod , matched with a correct line, will cast very well. I have several in that category that are darn good casting rods.

    I guess that I was just trying to separate skill from performance. Skill is strictly on the caster, performance adds the equipment as well. When you match skill with well balanced equipment, performance goes up. You can put the correct line on an inexpensive rod and the limiting factor will be the skill of the caster. But I would bet that the caster will have those occasions when they surprise themselves with an outstanding cast and begin to wonder what they did to make that happen. Now they can start to work on their skill as they know what the equipment is capable of.

    Bob

  13. #49

    Default Re: Can modern fly lines make you a better caster? Point, Counter Point

    This is tangentially off topic but the concept and genuine belief among the expert advisors to TFO and the reason for its notable success is a rod need not be expensively built with the most advanced technology to be a fine performing fly rod. They prove this over and over again with series like TFO.BVK, Mangrove and Axiom II. Do these rods have the smoothness of taper transitions you find in a G-Loomis, the crisp precision and clean recovery of a Sage or the feel of a Scott...no they don't but they get the fish to the net just fine.

    Sometimes it is not about the price. If, as on a BVK, I wanted a full half heavy fly line, I prefer the mid-priced Cortland Modern Trout taper to the twice the price SA Amplitude MPX. It has a better taper design.

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