Fast 6 wt or slower 7 wt?

[BlueDun]

My question was based on the recent thread about fast vs. medium action rods. Some people, including myself, think it is important to have at least one fast rod for windy days and for heavier flies. Based on that, last summer, I added a Sage TCX to my quiver to use as a streamer rod and for casting from a kayak on smaller lakes. I prefer using slower rods, like the Winston BIIt/WT or the Scott G2.

The TCX does its job, but I am not able to cast as accurately with it as I can with slower rods. The guys at my local shop say I just need to practice with it more (but I don't like it as well as slower rods, so I don't practice with it ). So, I am wondering if I should sell the 6 wt TCX and buy a slower action 7 wt. Would a slow action 7 wt give me the power I need/want for windy days and big flies? Or should I quit complaining and just practice more with the TCX?

 

[gt05254]

If I were you (be glad I'm not), I'd just try some more rods. I have found, through a very expensive process of elimination, that some rod brands or models within a brand just don't suit me. You will likely find a fast rod that DOES suit you. A case in point from my experience - I love Loomis NativeRun GLX's. got a batch of 'em. Wicked fast and wicked light. But I got a 10 foot 7 weight in that series that I just couldn't get a handle on (pun intended). However, the 9'6" 7 wt suits me to a T. I would just try some different brands of faster rods rather than giving up on the concept based on your experience with only one rod.
Happy Hunting, Gary

 

[MoscaPescador]

You can always slow down the TCX. Use a heavier line.

MP

 

[gt05254]

While I agree that you can slow the TCX down with a heavier line, that seems to sort of defeat the purpose of having the 6wt in the first place. If you're going to have to hang a 7 wt on a 6wt rod to make it work, why not just use a 7wt rod? I'm sure its just me, but every time I've had to overline a rod to make it "work" for me, the rod just felt clunky...and off to ebayland it went.
Gary

 

[colotrout]

gt, rod weight/action is such a personal thing that I think it might be worth BlueDun's time to try a heavier line. It might not work, but if it does, the solution is rather inexpensive.

Personally, I've played around with overlining and have had mixed results:

Scott A3 3wt. w/ a 3wt line: the rod would work ok with dries & hopper/dropper setups. As soon as I added a bit of weight, the rod seemed to just collapse. A knowledgeable shop owner suggested I overline it and it just didn't work.

SAGE Z-axis 3 wt. An amazing rod w/ a 3wt line but it always takes me a while to get used to it, especially after using my TXL ooo or Winston IIt 3wt....

So, I loaded it up with a SA GPX 3wt line that supposedly is a 3.5wt line and I think it takes me less time to get used to the z-axis.

Anyway, the bottom line is that all that "feel" stuff is a personal manner so I would say experiment (more than once) before making a decision such as getting rid of a potentially perfectly fine rod.

 

[MoscaPescador]

Uplining is a great way to fine tune a rod. Does it work for every rod? Maybe. Maybe not. That's for the caster to decide. The rod weight designations are just designations. What Jerry might think is a six weight may be something that Tim or Steve might think is a seven.

Back to the original post. Will a slower seven weight work just as well or better as a fast six? In my experience, yes and maybe. It will work just as well or better in terms of casting comfort. It should feel like an old friend. It might work as well in the delivery for power, but I would be concerned about how tight of a loop that you could create with the flies that you may be using. Remember that anyone could throw a tight loop with a tuft of yarn on the end of leader. The situation is different when one ties on a fly that is heavy and wind resistant.

Back to lines. What kind of lines are you using? Floaters? Sink tips? Shooting heads? When it comes to casting streamers, grain mass of the line is everything. The heavier lines have the mass to help load rods more for those bulky, waterlogged, wind resistant flies. I rarely use a floater on my fast six weight. I mostly use sink tips with 15 to 24 foot sections. The head mass varies from 185 grains to 225 grains.

MP

 

[Frank Whiton]

Hi BlueDun,

You bought a special rod for a special purpose and discovered it doesn't cast as accurate as other rods probably made for accurate casting. You wanted a streamer rod and went to a Very Fast action that should be a dandy streamer rod. If you decide accuracy is more important than bucking wind then the TCX may not be the best rod for you. You might want to consider a Sage Z-Axis. I would cast one and if it doesn't measure up I think you need to drop back to a medium to fast action rod.

It has been my experience that streamer fishing is not an accuracy game like dry fly fishing is. I have never been a really accurate caster but still catch my share of fish. I have never thought of a steamer rod in terms of accuracy.

 

[gt05254]

I sure agree that fly rod "fit" is a very personal thing...I suspect that's why there are quite a few companies making rods!

Its too bad fly lines are so darn expensive because, as several have noted above, a change of line can really change the way a rod works for you. For years I used Orvis lines, then a couple years ago a guide turned me on to Sage (made by Rio) Performance Taper II fly lines - I switched every floating line I owned, 2 to 10 wt, over to them. All my rods got better and my casting got better. BUT, Orvis made (mebbe still does) a line that they stated was a half line weight heavier than everybody else's standard line; it is still my go to for bass fishing.

So there's a thought: maybe try a bass or pike taper on that TCX. As Frank noted, you said you were going for a streamer rod; accuracy isn't incredibly critical in most streamer fishing situations.

 

[FrankB2]

Regarding the Sage TCX, here's Sage's description:
Evolved from our popular TCR Series, TCX rods redefine the extreme distance category, as we continue to push the outer boundaries of fly rod performance.

I suppose some people fish with TCX rods, but like others have said it's a specialty rod. The Sage Z-Axis is a fast rod, but still fishes well. Moscapescador sells these rods, and if he says you can slow it down, he's probably right. OTOH, you might never like the rod given the other rods you have a preference for. Go to the store, and try some more. Leland Outfitters
has a program that allows you to trade in your rod for store credit: they sell it on ebay, and apply the proceeeds to your purchase. Angler's Habitat does the same thing. With so many different types of rods available, struggling with a rod you don't like isn't necessary.

P.S. A Sage Z-Axis 5wt will toss 3" Clouser minnows into the wind all day, and dead-on using a SA GPX line.

 

[BlueDun]

Wow! Lots of great info in everyone's responses! I am going to have to experiment with line. I usually use a sink tip line, but have to dig out the box to be more specific about grain etc...

Re: the Z-Axis, I have tried just about every wt from 3 thru 8 at various times, but simply cannot cast that rod. The TCX, ZXL, TXL, SLT (my other 6 wt) and Xi2 are all far easier for me to cast than the Z-A.

Also, interesting point about accuracy with a streamer rod....something else I had not considered! I think some of the issue with accuracy was in sight casting to carp, but that is a different issue than my initial intended purpose of using it as a streamer rod.

Actually, thanks to all of your responses, I am looking forward to playing around with the TCX in by backyard to see what I can do with line to make it work better for me. It really is a great rod and despite the stiffness, it is very sensitive to even the little nibbles from small panfish.

 

[bjweller]

My goal, and this is why I posted the first thread, is to become proficient in casting more than one rod type. My friend and I have this discussion all the time and, as has been written, it's really a matter of preference.

 

[FrankB2]

It really is a great rod and despite the stiffness, it is very sensitive to even the little nibbles from small panfish.

Hmmmm.....It sounds like the nymphing article I mentioned in another thread, in which the author mentioned a preference for fast action rod. He stated that they are more sensitive. There's good and not so good in everything I suppose.

 

[Shane Stroud]

For me, rod ratings and action are based upon my target species, and thus what flies I will throw the majority of the time. If I were going to spend the majority of my time throwing large streamers or poppers for bass, I'd probably step up to the 7 WT with slower action. Otherwise, the advice to practice really might hold some water.

Being a cheapskate, I'd say practice more with that 6 WT. It keeps money in your pocket and you get to fish while doing it. That's a win-win situation if I ever saw one.

 

[MoscaPescador]

Wow! Lots of great info in everyone's responses! I am going to have to experiment with line. I usually use a sink tip line, but have to dig out the box to be more specific about grain etc...

My preferences on sink tips and shooting heads for the 9 foot 6 weight TCX
Rio DC Sink Tip 15 foot WF7FS3 or FS6 (185 grains) or WF8FS3 or FS6 (210 grains)
Rio DC Sink Tip 24 foot 200 grain, 250 grain
Cortland Precision Quick Descent 24 foot 175 grain*, 225 grain
Any shooting head between 185 and 250 grains (I don't fish shooting heads on this kind of rod, but the TCX can handle them)

MP

* The TCX will throw a 175 grain sink tip. The streamer needs to be smaller.

 

[Tracker12]

I am relatively new to fly fishing and some rods just don't work for me. I have a sage RPL 8 wt that I use for steelhead that I love to cast. I picked up a RPL+ in 6wt and as much as I tried I just didn't like it and it went off to Ebay. For me if it doesn't work I know to get rid of it and move on. I am now casting an old American made Powell 6wt that I am thrilled with. Last steelhead trip I couldn't put it down. Nice thing was the water at the Erie tribs was low and clear and I did not need much weight.

 

[wjc]

I am looking forward to playing around with the TCX in by backyard to see what I can do with line to make it work better for me. It really is a great rod and despite the stiffness, it is very sensitive to even the little nibbles from small panfish.

I think that's a good idea. You won't get any less for it if you decide to sell it later than if you try to sell it now, if you keep the handle clean.

I just put a 9 wt Rio WF tropical line on my 7 wt TCX to see how it did, and was able to throw the line quite easily to 90 feet, so I seriously doubt your 6wt will feel clunky with a 7 wt on it. The TCX's have a very fast recovery rate.

You may find it easier with a WF7 to get the feel of the rod, then later switch to a WF 6 , maybe even one with a long compound taper. With that type of taper you can comfortably vary the load on the rod by increasing or decreasing the amount of line out of the tip.

With the TCR's and X's you can "tip cast" short and medium distances with light line loads and short strokes with a little practice. If that doesn't work for you, you can either stick with a 7wt on it or sell it.

I fish with both TCR's and the TCX and find them to be the nicest rods I have ever used for getting off quick casts, for things from blind casting and bass bugging, to sight fishing for flats fish.

For delicate presentations to trout on clear streams, I would still go with my little bamboo rods - though I haven't cast any of them in probably 5 years now.

I would give it a little time with the 6 wt first, and try shortening your stroke.

Then buy a cheap 7 wt WF line to play with before you decide. The shop you bought it from should certainly let you try out a demo reel with a 7 on it. Sounds like you are on speaking terms with them. MP has the shooting head weights laid out, so you can compare those weights to the AFTM specs for the first 30' of WF integrated lines.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Jim