using bucktail and a hair stacker....

[MacFly55]

I posted these questions on another site and got squat for an answer.. so figured Id try here.... probably should of done that in the first place.. anyway.. [/




I am in the middle of trying to copy the fly that I posted a few weeks ago looking for its name...

The beard on this fly is bucktail... which I have never tied with before.. I ran into a couple of problems (minor) that maybe someone here can help me with..

first.. hairstacker.. is that a necessary tool to have on hand and use when tying flies with bucktail? If so is there one that is better than the other or all they about the same..

now for the bucktail..

first time I tied in the beard the bucktail flared out on me.. not a huge mess but had to do a lot of cleanup to make it look right..

second time I tied it in a little looser to hold it in place and then came back over it to tighten it down.. but. .this time it seemed the hair was a little loose to the point of some of it slippling out.. I solved that with a drop of cement (at least I hope I did.. ),.,,,

so on the hair.. what is the best way to tie it in snugly without it flaring out on me??

MacFly

 

[BigCliff]

It sounds like you're using hair that is hollow, rather than solid.

Hollow hair flairs, solid doesn't, or barely does. Usually there's some of both on a bucktail, with the more thin solid stuff being closer to the tip, and thick hollow stuff near the base.

Try using the stuff from the tip.

Pro tip- when I get a new bucktail, I break the top third off from the rest and use that. The rest goes in a tub as "back stock" and the top third lasts for many dozens of flies.

A hair stacker is quite handy, but you could make something like a film canister work.

 

[Ard]

Mac,

Cliff has you squared away on the 'why it flares' thing and as for to use or not to use a stacker................ Some hair is so uneven that you must do a little something to get them somewhat uniform for wings, beards, etc. My problem is that stacked hair looks 'Too' good! I'll post two pictures, one with a too good wing and one not so stacked. I'm sure the fish don't mind either way but I like the more natural vs. factory look.

Stacked Buck Tail Wing;

[/IMG]

Unstacked;

[/IMG]

No matter how you chose to do it the drop of tying cement is key to hair wings and beards. You have the right idea,

Ard

 

[peregrines]

Mac

I use bucktail a lot for SW flies and generally just roughly even the tips by hand after cutting a bunch rather than stacking-- like Ard I prefer a roughly evened wing (or throat) to a perfectly stacked wing that ends up looking like a paintbrush.

A couple tips--

a little goes a long way, don't cut too thick of a bunch-- 20-30 hairs or less is probably plenty.

Like Cliff said, use the hair from the tip, or upper 2/3 of the bucktail as opposed to the thicker hollow hair at the base of the bucktail, which will have a tendency to flare under thread tension. Here's an example of yellow hair cut from the tip of a bucktail and white hair cut from the base of a bucktail. Note how the solid yellow hair doesn't flare as much as the hollow white bucktail under thread tension?

Using the hair from the tips of the bucktail is easiest for now. But you can also tame unruly bucktail that flares by adjusting the tension of your thread wraps. You'll still want to use tight wraps to bind the bucktail securely to the hook shank, but use a couple looser "gathering wraps" of thread under less tension as you move rearward to bring the strands of bucktail under control, then wrap forward again gradually increasing tension again. The looser wraps will help to reduce the angle that the bucktail flares from the shank.

And depending on what you're tying, you might also consider using calf tail for a beard. It's a lot shorter than bucktail, but might work for you. On this pattern, the orange throat and tail is calf tail, the white belly and yellow wing are bucktail

Good luck!

 

[Jimmie]

IMO a hair stacker is difficult, and frustrating to use with bucktail. Plus, it doesn't do all that good of job. The guy that taught me how to tie stacks his bucktail, but I use another method. I hold the butts lightly in my right hand; take the longest tips in my left hand; give them a jerk pull out of the clump; stack the hairs back in the clump with the tips as even as possible. I do this three to five times. The tips are fairly even. Quick and easy.

 

[Joni]

I agree Jimmie....on Bucktail, I never use a stacker, easier to just pull on the long ones, then line another batch, pull again and keep doing that till you got the size of clump you want.

Same thing with Calftail.

 

[gt05254]

I think Ard's pics exemplify why NOT to use a stacker. I don't even use it for a striped hair like squirrel tail...I can pretty much even things up by hand if I have to.

Regarding bucktails, I steer WAY clear of those advertised a huge northern bucktails with 4 inch hair at least. I look for the little ones - maybe they are from does - that have nice straight hair - not like the crinkly stuff on those big bucktails.

You might look into something like kid goat hair for beards or throats. finer stuff than bucktail.

Bottom line: if it flares, its likely hollow, and not much good for a wet fly.

That might actually all be worth 3 cents.
Gary

 

[MacFly55]

It sounds like you're using hair that is hollow, rather than solid.

Hollow hair flairs, solid doesn't, or barely does. Usually there's some of both on a bucktail, with the more thin solid stuff being closer to the tip, and thick hollow stuff near the base.

Try using the stuff from the tip.

Pro tip- when I get a new bucktail, I break the top third off from the rest and use that. The rest goes in a tub as "back stock" and the top third lasts for many dozens of flies.

A hair stacker is quite handy, but you could make something like a film canister work.

ok Im little confused here.. so going to ask what is probably a dumb a$$ question.. tip and base of the tail... I first thought you meant tip as the part furthest away from what use to be the butt of the animal.. but then you say you break off the top third (part closest to the butt of the animal or base).. and toss the rest aside...

so.. in my case Id use the hair at the tip (part furtherst away from the butt of the animal) of the tail since it is more solid and easier to tie correct??

 

[gt05254]

In a word, yes.

 

[MacFly55]

Mac,

Cliff has you squared away on the 'why it flares' thing and as for to use or not to use a stacker................ Some hair is so uneven that you must do a little something to get them somewhat uniform for wings, beards, etc. My problem is that stacked hair looks 'Too' good! I'll post two pictures, one with a too good wing and one not so stacked. I'm sure the fish don't mind either way but I like the more natural vs. factory look.

Stacked Buck Tail Wing;

[/IMG]

Unstacked;

[/IMG]

No matter how you chose to do it the drop of tying cement is key to hair wings and beards. You have the right idea,

Ard

Ard... Id have to agree with you on the stacked or not... and tbh what I tied already is the unstacked and I think looks more natural.. not a factory finished look... Ill have to try to take some pics tonite of what I was trying to duplicate and post it and my result so far...

MacFly

---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 PM ----------

thank you all for the excellent and quick feedback on this... it is appreciated... seems like all of you are awake here as compared to a different site...

MacFly

 

[MacFly55]

I tried to get pictures of the flies but ended up with blurry messes.. but I did post a picture of it in an earlier post asking for a name of the fly..

MacFly

 

[stimmy7]

I agree with all the comments about hand stack vs. stacker for bucktail wings- avoid the 'paintbrush look' at all costs.

One thing I'd add to all the good comments here is CLEAN HAIR is critical to success! I always wash bucktails I get, whether I buy commercially prepared or hand-harvested ones. Hand harvested you OBVIOUSLY have to wash, but the commercially prepared natural ones (undyed) haven't always been put in a hot bath and properly cleaned of all the oils and dust/dirt.

Fill a sink with hot tap water and get a bottle of DAWN dishwashing detergent and some hair conditioner (any cheap variety works well). DAWN does the best job of removing oils and grease- I have a bottle I keep with my my other tools for cleaning materials (hair brush, combs, knives, stainless steel scissors, a spoon with one sharpened edge, toothbrushes, utility knife). Let the tail/s soak in the water for 10-15 minutes until the skin becomes a little pliable, then apply detergent to the hair and massage it in, all the way down to the skin. Dunk it back in the water, swish it around and repeat the process using less detergent the second time. Use a comb and comb through the hair from base to tip of the tail to get any "nits" or other foreign material out that may be down near the skin level.

Drain the sink and rinse the tail/s under warm running water, squeezing until all of the soap is out. Apply a SMALL amount of hair conditioner to the tail/s and massage it into the hair- let it sit for 5-10 minutes. Use a comb to comb thru the hair again, then rinse the tails/s under warm running water to get the conditioner off and then finish by rinsing under cold running water. Shake off as much excess water as you can.

Prepare a pad of newspaper covered with a 2-3 sheet thick layer of paper towels and lay the tail/s hair side down on top of these. Check the skin for any fatty deposits and scrape these off with a sharpened spoon edge or a knife, being careful not to get any in the hair you just washed =) Trim off any extra edges of skin while it's still wet. Press the tail/s down into the paper towels to remove more water.

IF YOU PLAN to trim the whole tails into smaller sections, this is probably the best time to do it, while the skin is pliable. Depending on the thickness, you can do this with scissors or a utility knife. As discussed by others earlier in the post, hair near the base (root) of the tail is coarser and consequently hollower and tends to flare more. First step is while the tail is lying hair side down, use a utility knife and score a line halfway through the skin to make cutting easier in the next step. Next, carefully fan out the hair and using your cutting tool, go between the hair and follow the score lines you made to finish the cuts. I generally cut the tail so the root section ends up in two "square" pieces and the tip section ends up in 3 or 4 long pieces, depending on how large the tail is. The nice thing about this is you have pieces small enough to pack in a travel kit when you're all done.

Two options at this point for final drying of the tails, lots depends on your environment and/or the 'tolerance of others' in your environment. You can allow the tails to air dry by running a needle with heavy thread thru the skin and tying a loop, then hanging them in an area where air will circulate around them. I avoid taking them outside to avoid any bugs. The other option is to use a hair dryer on LOW setting and direct the air at both sides of the tail (hair side and skin side) alternately until dry.

Leave the tail/s out to make sure they're completely dry before putting them away in a zip-top bag to avoid any mold/mildew from forming. Label the bag with the source of the tail/s, the date prepared and you'll have plenty of easy to use, nice clean bucktail for a long time.

I've been told by some that I'm a bit excessive about the cleaning of materials, but I think it's REALLY worth spending the time up-front to make the tying experience more enjoyable and to make sure you get the most out of the materials you buy.

 

[MacFly55]

it may be a long process but sounds like it is worth it in the end... thanks for the input..

MacFly

 

[kelkay]

I hand stack most of my bucktail as well. They are right about the flaring too.

 

[Ard]

thank you all for the excellent and quick feedback on this... it is appreciated... seems like all of you are awake here as compared to a different site...

Mac,

I just spotted the quote I pasted here You are welcome, and what you see in the replies is exactly what makes this a great place to ask questions. I must also mention that members such as yourself are what keep the forum growing so please keep on posting and keep on tying those flies.

Ard