How to tie small bucktail flies?

[turbineblade]

Hi - How do you properly tie bucktail flies in smaller sizes? Like #8-10?

The bucktail is pretty much already long enough for #4-6 bucktail flies just when you cut it from the bucktail itself, but how do you do the hair properly when you only need like 1/2 that length? If you tie it long and cut it, it looks too "human" for my taste -- I like the natural bucktail taper.

Am I over-thinking this?

Thanks!

 

[theboz]

Cut it half the length off the tail. I know that leaves a bunch still on the tail so when needed thats what I use on deer hair bugs and heads. No waste that way. Used to clip it at the base of the tail and trim down but realized I was throwing away to much!

 

[Ard]

To add to what John has said.............................. Hair Stacker, get yourself a hair stacker and use it to even out the tips. After doing so you can re-arrange them for a bit of a natural look (if you please) and them cut (on the butt end) to suit your needs.

Ard

---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 PM ----------

If you choose to cut as John suggests, you can come back and use the butts on the tail to augument the heads on Muddlers or for the bodies of the 'Irresistible' (people still tie that, right?) in the future. Don't think of the butts as waste, more like a savings account

 

[stimmy7]

I'm assuming what you're looking for IS NOT having even tips like a paintbrush, but more of the natural taper as it looks "on the tail" still? Granted there is waste if you cut the hair at the base next to the tail, but if you want it to look right and you can deal with losing a "matchstick" sized bunch of hair, you'll get what you want.

The other option is consider using kip (calf) tail. Some of those have long fibers and if the problem is the hair is too 'curly/kinky' for you, consider washing them and using hair conditioner on them, then brushing/combing the hair out and rinsing it well. You'll find the hair will relax quite a bit.

 

[bigjim5589]

Bucktail is one of my favorite materials, but frankly when getting down into those sizes, I much prefer a finer textured hair like fox. However, it you insist on using bucktail, try to find a tail that has very fine textured hair. It seems to me that when most folks purchase or obtain deer tails, they're looking for bigger tails, with longer hair. I don't mind buying small or medium tails, as many I've gotten have finer hair that's better suited for smaller size flies. Saves cutting up long hair that might be needed for bigger flies!

 

[flytire]

Am I over-thinking this?

yes

just tie in the buck tail wing shorter. no need to cut the tips. just grasp the buck tail closer to the tips and tie it in proportionally. if the recipe call for the wing to be as long as the hook then its still the same length regadless of hook size.

regardless if you use a hair stacker to even the tips, if you even the tips by hand or you use the buck tail as is cut off the tail, it still gets tied in proportionally to the size of the hook

bigjim says this: It seems to me that when most folks purchase or obtain deer tails, they're looking for bigger tails, with longer hair. I don't mind buying small or medium tails, as many I've gotten have finer hair that's better suited for smaller size flies. Saves cutting up long hair that might be needed for bigger flies!

this a very good idea. buy the smaller buck tails for the finer hair


here are some examples of mini streamers

http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/swaps/mini/

http://www.invictaflies.us/Articles/mini_streamers.htm

 

[Rip Tide]

I'm with bigjim on this....you don't use bucktail on something that size.
The diameter of the hair is too large.
There's plenty of other tail material that's more suitable.
Fox, coyote, kip, dog D)

I saw some Clouser "foxee minnows" posted somewhere the other day.
Wish I could remember where.
I never thought much of them before, but these were outstanding

 

[bigjim5589]

just tie in the buck tail wing shorter. no need to cut the tips.

I guess I misunderstood the initial question, but very much agree with flytire! IMO, cutting the tips on any hair (or even feathers) defeats the purpose of using those materials. If you're going to tie with hair, and cut the tips, you're wasting the best action of that material! Heck, you might as well be tying with Fishair or paint brush bristles! (Both have a place in tying, but not as wings on small flies IMO!)

There's plenty of other tail material that's more suitable.
Fox, coyote, kip, dog D)

Agreed, that's my point, use materials better suited for the hook sizes, and there are many other options. I used to tie most of my Bonefish type patterns, such as Crazy Charlies with Badger hair. It's quite fine, and fairly straight. I liked it better than calftail, and with the guard hairs removed it looked almost like calftail, which is the material used most on such patterns.
Only very close inspection comparing the two side by side revealed a difference. The Badger being finer textured had better movement.

One very experienced Florida guide I used to supply flies with, told me "I know something is different about the flies, but don't know what!" "Keep doing whatever it is, because the Bonefish really like them!"

 

[wt bash]

I use hackle barbs for the really small streamers. You still get good movement, maybe even better.

 

[Rip Tide]

We were using these with some success last season
Don Bastain's red squirrel picketpin... with a wing of red squirrel tail of course

 

[turbineblade]

Wow - very helpful ideas here! Thank you!

It appears that bucktail isn't ideal for smaller "bucktail streamer" type flies. I'll look into calf tail and craft hair for sure. It sounds like fox tail and badger hair work well too. Very cool. Basically, I like smaller minnow patterns (like what you'd tied on a #8 or #10 streamer hook) on the fish around here (bass, sunfish, crappie, yellow perch, catfish, etc.) and was having trouble using regular bucktail -- that's all.

Are "bonefish flies" tied with calftail and material like this because the wing is typically shorter than what you'd get with bucktail?....just like what I'm going for? I've never tied bonefish flies and am not familiar with them.

Thank you again!

 

[Rip Tide]

I'll look into calf tail and craft hair for sure. It sounds like fox tail and badger hair work well too. Very cool.!

Put some pruning shears in your car and be on the look-out squirrel pancakes. :secret:
Collecting a few tails will get you a bunch of winging material... and it's much easier than tanning full pelts
You could probably even dye a few with KoolAide
.... talk about the darkside


(you can do the same with deer, but that's a little weird.... even for me )

 

[bigjim5589]

Are "bonefish flies" tied with calftail and material like this because the wing is typically shorter than what you'd get with bucktail?....just like what I'm going for? I've never tied bonefish flies and am not familiar with them.

There are many types of "bonefish" flies. My comments were more about those that are tied in the style that resembles Clouser Minnows. Patterns such as Crazy Charlies or Gotchas. Gotchas are typically tied with synthetic materials in the wing, but such hairs as fox can also be used. Clouser Minnows, being extremely versatile, are also popular as Bonefish flies. The majority of "bonefish" style flies are tied in sizes ranging from size 8, up to about size 1 or 1/0, with 6, 4 & 2 likely the most used sizes, so yes, calftail is used because it's length fits these sizes well.

I like the Crazy Charlie style flies for Smallmouth bass in streams. Since the style is intended to imitate various small shrimp, it works well as crayfish too.
I'll adjust the colors to better fit those of the crayfish in my area. Squirrel tail, as Rip Tide has indicated is a material I like for such patterns, as it's natural coloration & barring fits crayfish patterns & the fine texture of the hair works well on small sizes.

Prior to the 70's, calftail & bucktail were both used extensively in many saltwater patterns, including Bonefish flies, primarily because there was not as yet the proliferation of materials in wide use that we have today. Both materials were also readily available & relatively inexpensive. Both, are still popular & still used, but since other materials are now more easily obtained, tiers do not limit themselves to what used to be standards. Calftail has also been a very popular material for small jigs such as Shad Darts, used for Shad & various panfish species.

If you take a look at many of the older Steelhead patterns, such as Skykomish Sunrise, or Polar Shrimp style flies, they were commonly tied with either Calftail or bucktail depending on the sizes. Today, as with saltwater patterns, there are many more materials available.

A Google search for "Bonefish flies", or "Crazy Charlies" will yield many images of small size flies that can be adapted for the type of fishing you're looking to do. Just be sure to use materials that fit the sizes you tie to get the most from the patterns! :thumbsupu

BTW, just to throw a wrench into this discussion, ostrich herl fibers also work well for small flies!

 

[theboz]

When Turbineblade said size 8 to 10 hooks the first thing that came to mind were Mickey Finns, Black Nose Dace and small Blondes. To me this says short sparse bucktail for these smaller Clousers. But after reading what Jim and Rip posted I realize the fox and other substitutes would be a good substitute. I was just trying to go with the question of bucktail.
Actually one of my favorite SW Clousers is tied on an 8 and uses bead chain eyes and tan and white Antron Fibers with a bit if Flashabou and it's deadly!
Now I'll have to play with some fox and squirrel.
Just a note I've used Black Bear hair on small ones and it looks pretty nice!

 

[stimmy7]

When Turbineblade said size 8 to 10 hooks the first thing that came to mind were Mickey Finns, Black Nose Dace and small Blondes. To me this says short sparse bucktail for these smaller Clousers. But after reading what Jim and Rip posted I realize the fox and other substitutes would be a good substitute. Just a note I've used Black Bear hair on small ones and it looks pretty nice!

I was thinking similarly- that the desire was for white or colored hair, not natural brown/two-tone type hairs. And like you, I've used lots of black bear, mostly on steelhead and salmon flies!

As for the comment about snipping off some "sail squirrel" tails:

1) watch out for oncoming traffic
2) watch out for STRANGE looks from passers by
3) watch out for fleas/ticks if they're REAL fresh
4) learn how to properly clean and prep these before putting them in with your other materials!!!

 

[turbineblade]

I have a deep freezer and tend to keep most of my hair and feathers in there. I figure that will either kill, or at least "slow down" the spread of parasites.

I have found funky brown little critters in some bucktail (collected from Missouri) but they appear to be dead.....I put it back in the freezer anyway just in case.

---------- Post added at 06:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 AM ----------

About the use of bucktail -- I probably should have said "how do I tie smallish streamer flies that are somewhat similar to a bucktail streamer?"

I'm not set on using bucktail, but I do tend to use lighter colored streamers to imitate the minnow species around here. They tend to be whitish/brown bi-colored (light below, dark above - typical of bait fish). I'm going to really look into some of these alternate materials when I hit the fly shop this weekend .

I never go into the fly shop without spending at least $10. That's a rule for me. .