What am I doing wrong??

[WoollyBourbon]

Hi all -

I've been working my way through the Orvis "premium" fly tying kit. I know that many of you aren't fans of kits, but I chose this one for three reasons:

1) I wanted some sort of "regimen" to follow that would hopefully help build basic skills
2) I didn't want to spend a ton of money to figure out whether or not this would be something I would enjoy longer term
3) I'm notoriously bad at taking good advice!

Anyway, I've been tying some of the basic patterns but can't seem to consistently "finish" a fly. I'll get to the end and it will look fine, and then everything seems to come undone while finishing. I try to be consistent, but I'm having inconsistent results.

The two flies on the left below seem to have come out fine. But the ones to the right are an unraveled mess. It's happening on the vise, during or directly before the three finishing "half hitches." It's like the thread will begin to unravel off of the hook shank. Or other times the thread will break when I'm doing the half hitches. Any advice? Thought maybe it was the thread being twisted, but I've spun the bobbin at various points to avoid that....

 

[corn fed fins]

Are you sure you are correctly half hitching? I see beginners do opposite hitch with regards to tying direction. This can lead to body unraveling and eventually the hitch. Make sure your half hitch is correct and the thread is being "trapped".

Additionally, you can not allow slack in the thread between fly and half hitch. It must be kept taunt for at least first hitch. This is easier for me to accomplish with a whip finisher and I can be more accurate with the placement of the finish. That's just how do learned as well. Lol

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[dillon]

The two on the left look very good. I'm not sure what is happening from what you describe. What size is the thread? I'd probably use 8/0. I like Veevus as it's pretty strong. You could even go lighter with it. I'd suggest using a whip finish tool instead of individual half hitches. Whip finishing can also be done with your fingers, but takes a little practice. You can also just practice whip finishing or half hitching until you get it down. Then tie the whole fly. You can also take a look at a you tube video on tying this fly to get some tips. That's my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps. Keep practicing.

Oh, many tiers coat the whole body of that fly patterns with a cement like Hard as Nails, finger nail polish or UV resin.

 

[WoollyBourbon]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice, CFF and dillon. There's a whip finisher that came with the kit, I just haven't tried it yet. Sounds like a logical next step! Will probably try it on some empty hook shanks first....

-WB

 

[brownbass]

I had the same problem (I think) and it was caused by too much thread tension while whip finishing. I use a whip finishing tool and if the thread doesn't slip it binds up and can break the thread.

Bill

 

[flytie09]

Doesn't hurt to wax the thread prior to finishing the head. Helps to draw things tight. Also...give the whip finisher a try. A couple turns is all that is needed and you can maintain good tension during the process. A dab of head cement at the end or uv cure coating the entire body will insure it doesn't all unravel at the end.

Half hitching is all I used for years....you must insure you have good thread tension and pull the final hitch tight to just before your thread breaks. Learning thread tension not only on the heads...but through out a fly construction is a critical skill to keep things locked down tight.

 

[kentuckysteve]

When you get the thread body completed,put a half hitch to lock it in place before you wind the wire onto the body.Then wind the wire on and do the half hitches to tie it down.You may be doing this already but if you are not then it may help.On some flies i put a half hitch after each step so if the thread breaks it will hold what i have in place and the entire fly will not come undone.
Also make sure the thread does not accidentally brush against the hook point as you are wrapping it around the hook.It's very easy to do and the least little nick will cause the thread to break.
The thread may be breaking because of too much tension applied and as you tie more you will learn the different thread strengths.We have all been there.It just takes practice.
A couple of those flies do look good so you know you can do it.

 

[bocianka1]

I started with a **** fly tying kit that i found for a few bucks at a yard sale. Even with junk materials, you can learn to successfully tie some basic and effective patterns like wooly buggers and midges.

I found the whip finish tool to be intimidating at first, but after i had a little practice I found it much easier than hand whip finishing. Particular when you have a little rough skin, the thread always seems to catch or not slide and I inevitably get slack in my half hitch and it slips off or things come loose. However, keep practice with your hand finishes as well. Some patterns you will likely try out later will have you going around wings, legs, or other buggy parts and i find it much easier to manipulate over and around things with a hand finish.

It really helped me to go on you tube and look up whip finishing tool demos. I searched through them until I found a tool that matched the one in my kit and that made it much easier to follow and master the skill. There are several different varieties of finishers and although they all perform the same function, and even look similar, some are much easier to master.

I would also second the idea of adding in additional half hitches as you go. It can save you from having to redo an entire fly if things slip and come undone.

Keep practicing. If you made it this far you're only a few steps away from the tying fever taking you over. Before you know it you'll be going to local tying events and scouring craigslist for better equipment. Speaking of which, tis the season to get some cheap tinsel that makes for lightweight ribbing

Keep up the good work. You'll notice improvement week to week as you practice and watch videos on the flies.

Tight lines,

-keith-



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[silver creek]

The two flies on the left below seem to have come out fine. But the ones to the right are an unraveled mess. It's happening on the vise, during or directly before the three finishing "half hitches." It's like the thread will begin to unravel off of the hook shank. Or other times the thread will break when I'm doing the half hitches. Any advice? Thought maybe it was the thread being twisted, but I've spun the bobbin at various points to avoid that....

View attachment 14160

I have several comments. I see frayed thread. Even the pattern in the middle has FRAYED thread at the back of the fly AND at the head of the fly.

Secondly, the thread has very little twist especially the fly at the top right side. You can see how the individual fibers have splayed.

You say you are spinning the bobbin to avoid twist. Why? Twisted thread does not separate as flat thread does and the tread gets thicker and stronger. Have you ever seen a rope that is NOT twisted? Rope is twisted to prevent fraying. Or even better it is braided to create even a stronger rope. This is especially critical when you tie KNOTS because the edges of the TWISTED thread bind the opposing edges of the knot. With a flat thread, the half hitch can more easily SLIP.

So my first suggestion is to twist the thread.

“In the simplest sense, fiber that is twisted or braided is stronger than the same bundle of fibers that are straight because the cord has more capacity to stretch. It won't stretch to the same length as the straight fibers, but in exchange the fibers (and the spaces between them) can compress. This makes for greater elasticity as well as superior abrasion resistance, but more importantly it prevents snarls and tangles.”

Is a rope stronger, equally strong, or weaker than the sum of the individual strings the rope is made of, is the strength altered by bundling? - Quora

Secondly, how are you making the half hitches? If you are using a half hitch tool, make sure the it does not have any burrs that are causing the fraying. If you are using your fingers, make sure your fingers are SMOOTH. I would also examine the bobbin to make sure that there are no burrs fraying your thread.

Thirdly, even though the tread is fraying, it still looks relatively thick compared to the size of the fly. Maybe it is the fact that it looks spread out from being untwisted.

I agree with the early poster who suggest that some light wax will help to reduce fraying.

Fourth, try the Matarelli style whip finisher that comes in your kit.

They are ambidextrous.

YouTube

 

[rodneyshishido]

Is it possible that your thread bobbin has a rough spot that is causing your thread to fray?

 

[bumble54]

Yes, yes, yes, learn to whip finish, it's not difficult. A whip finish tool is worth the money if you can't whip finish by hand.
I've only ever used my fingers and a bodkin inserted into the thread loop to bed down the finished knot, this prevents thread breakage caused by the thread twisting. I'm also a strong advocate of waxing the thread and rarely use varnish other than to "lock" hair wings in position, a well waxed thread needs no varnish.
When practicing pay attention to the tension you apply to the thread, most experienced tiers don't think about it because it has become second nature to them.
Practice, practice, practice, you'll get there eventually and you'll have a big smile on your face as you give advice to beginners. :thumb:

 

[fishing hobo]

Learn to both half hitch properly as well as whipfinishing with the tool. If the thread breaks as it sometimes do during whipfinishing you can save the work by using half hitch tool.

 

[bigjim5589]

Some excellent replies & suggestions. To add to what Silver Creek said, use an appropriate thread in both size and type. Round threads should remain round as he said, and if you need a flat thread then purchase a flat thread ( or floss).

You say you're using half hitches, and untwisting the thread. I've noted that sometimes twisted threads or a twist in the thread causes a counter twist when attempting to pull a knot tight and forms a "tag" in the thread. If you get one of those little twisted "tags" when pulling thread tight, it won't usually pull out as you tighten, it breaks.

Have you ever had line on a spinning reel come off the spool in loops and twisted tangles? That's what I'm talking about with tying thread, those twisted tangles.

This is a problem with finer threads that I use, so if you have a bodkin, or any longer needle, I find it helps to insert the needle into the loop formed by the thread prior to pulling it tight, and with slight pressure on the thread with the bodkin, pull the knot tight. The pressure with the bodkin keeps it from twisting up as that will cause breakage and a frayed appearance.

I use half hitches in some fly construction, and to hold things in place if I have to stop tying prior to completing a step, but whip finish all flies that I tie to complete them. I whip finish without a tool, it's just how I learned. I see this problem of a twisted thread when completing a whip finish knot sometimes, especially with finer threads. The bodkin helps so that I rarely have any breakage and always cut the thread to end the tying operation as that prevents any fraying.

BTW, it is a very common problem with beginner tyers of not maintaining tension on the thread during all tying operations. Too much tension of course can cause breakage, but not enough will cause unraveling and those little twisted "tags" on thread. It's a habit that has to be learned to keep the thread tight enough. Practice is the only way to do that, so the more you tie, the better it should get.

You may want to tie on some larger size hooks, to work on these techniques. Small hooks are fine for fishing, especially for a trout angler, but larger hooks are easier to tie on since you'll have more space to work. In my learning stages, I often tied flies that may not have been appropriate for the fishing I did, such as Key's style Tarpon patterns. I lived in MD, and no Tarpon there, but it allowed me to tie on large hooks and work on tying technique. I did end up using those flies for LM bass or Striped Bass in the brackish, tidal rivers, but the point of tying the patterns was to learn, and I enjoyed tying them.

I actually got pretty good at tying Tarpon flies, and for several years supplied several Keys guides and a fly shop with Tarpon flies, and all because I learned to tie them early in my tying efforts. Learning the techniques at this point is more important than the actual patterns or fly types that you tie.

 

[dillon]

Here's a little trick I probably shouldn't tell because beginners should learn to half hitch and whip finish and not rely on tricks like this. Upon completion of tying the fly do not whip or half hitch. Simply apply super glue to a couple inches of the thread and then make about five nice and tight turns before cutting the thread close to the turns. When it dries, it's solid. On a fly like the midges in the pic it would work well because the thread is tied down behind the thread so there is no thread head and you may be coating the whole body anyway.

 

[WoollyBourbon]

Thanks all! It's raining in Florida today (surprise, surprise) so looks like I'll take a shot at learning to whip finish. The video was very helpful. I also like the idea of learning on bigger flies/hooks. Any excuse to head over to the shop.

-WB

 

[Rip Tide]

Personally, I feel that's it's extremely important to learn to whip finish by hand before ever trying to use a tool
That way you'll better understand what exactly that you're trying to accomplish.
With the tool, you're just following directions. By hand you're seeing it all come together
Once you learn to do it by hand, you'll get it right every time, even with the tool.

YouTube

 

[dillon]

I strongly agree with Rip Tide's above comment

 

[jspfishing]

Silver Creek has a perfect example. I look for the 4 and then wrap. I understand though, the struggle is real. I failed multiple times by hand and with a whip finish tool. Nothing more frustrating. I still don't know how to do it by hand haha.

 

[fishing hobo]

Silver Creek has a perfect example. I look for the 4 and then wrap. I understand though, the struggle is real. I failed multiple times by hand and with a whip finish tool. Nothing more frustrating. I still don't know how to do it by hand haha.

Just learn to do it with the tool, get different sizes of the whipfinish tool. Never learnt the manual method as it is easy enough with the tool.

 

[fishing hobo]

Personally, I feel that's it's extremely important to learn to whip finish by hand before ever trying to use a tool
That way you'll better understand what exactly that you're trying to accomplish.
With the tool, you're just following directions. By hand you're seeing it all come together
Once you learn to do it by hand, you'll get it right every time, even with the tool.

YouTube

Sorry, I think that looks messy. I would HATE my flies heads to look like that although I am sure you can get it much neater.