Tying thread question

[eastfly66]

I am looking to symplify my thread assortment and with the show coming I plan on stocking up. I have accumulated a number of spools but in various deniers. This is the result of being an impulsive tyer and jumping on whatever pattern grabs my eye in the moment...dam that utube.

Anyway, what I am thinking is I should be able to be fully stocked with getting all the popular colors in 70 , 210 and Flymasters flat waxed for the big salt stuff. I likw UTC because they label the color and have that little cap to keep the loose thread end not in use.

What do you guys think ? will UTC 70 & 210 cover most all fresh water or do I need 140 also ? What about these 6/0w and 8/0w I have ? I can't even remember what I got them for but I'm guessing something small.

 

[Ard]

Not that it may help but I tie everything except big Sculpins with Uni or Vintage Orvis 6/0 & 8/0 black. I use Uni 6/0 pink on the AK. Assassin patterns. All those tubes I ever posted, the feather wing streamers, the classic salmon & steelhead ties, all plain old 6/0 or 8/0 thread.

6/0 black Uni


Same thread;




Even these;


I have some brown and olive Kevlar type thread for spinning deer hair and stuff like that but use the Uni 6 & 8 for everything else. When I want colored heads I have white Uni and I finish the head with silk to get things like the fly below.





Hard to see in the photo but those heads appear like a natural garnet gemstone, you can see into them. That is what happens when you lacquer silk heads. Little doubt I have strange tying habits and will never be famous but I've been doing things the same way for so long I know I'll never change.

 

[eastfly66]

Glad you chimed in Ard, you covered an area I forgot to ask about and that being the streamers and steelhead (intruder type). So 6/0 and 8/0 is the same as what other types in case the shop has something else? Now that 6/0w I have looks pretty thin , is it high break strength or something like that ? What about that waxed flymaster ? that stuff to thick for the streamers ?

Also, I got my deniers a$$ backward on the first post, it is 70 and 140 I plan on stocking.

Gorgeous flies Ard . stunning to say the least !

 

[eastfly66]

ok, I looked it up over on Stockard, slim profile , sits flat with high strength. So, maybe I'm thinking now all I need is 70 and 6/0 ? that will cover all the small stuff up to my streamers ?

 

[LandoLando]

I use Ultra UTC in 70 or 140 for thread bodies and heads, because it lays real flat and finishes well without cement or epoxy.

I use UNi 8/0 or 6/0 for tying dry and wet flies and for tying in articulating wire because it stays round and grips really well and still has some elasticity to it.

I use GSP 100 or 200 for anything that has deer hair on it because it's impossible to break. I also use it on other flies that require really high tension winding. I don't really trust a single whip finish with this thread because it is not very elastic, so I generally do multiple finishes or use cement or epoxy.

So to break it down:
UTC for nice tapered bodies and heads (flat thread).
Uni for great grip in the shank direction (round thread).
GSP for great for really tight wraps that keep feathers and other materials from rotating around the shank (very strong thread).

I only keep white and black GSP because it is usually well hidden by the materials, I have the most colors of UTC, because it's generally the most visible.

 

[corn fed fins]

What do you plan on tying at the show?

Most of my big patterns are 3/0, 210, and GSP. Small is 16/0 for #28s.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

 

[bumble54]

I must be a simple sole as I rarely take note of thread thickness, colour being of more importance to me. If a thread is too thick I use fewer turns or in the case of small flies I split the thread. I even resort to raiding the sewing box for threads if it is the right colour.

 

[eastfly66]

What do you plan on tying at the show?

Most of my big patterns are 3/0, 210, and GSP. Small is 16/0 for #28s.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

" Tying at the show ? " If I was still a drinking Man I might be tying one on at the show but those days are long gone. I do plan on buying at the show....materials. The 16/0 for 28's fills in another gap, I do tie small for a local tailwater.

 

[flytire]

veevus 12/0 and ocassionally danvilles 6/0 meets all of my tying needs

most of the salmon and steelhead flies i have been posting are tied with veevus 12/0 thread

years ago it was 3/0 for this and 6/0 for that. i dont subscribe to that thinking any more

 

[karstopo]

http://www.jsflyfishing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/thread-comparison-chart-for-blog.pdf

Here’s a chart comparing various makers tying thread with sizing to flies.

 

[coug]

Ard, those are nice! Need to try your method on steelhead patterns. -Dave

 

[corn fed fins]

" Tying at the show ? " If I was still a drinking Man I might be tying one on at the show but those days are long gone. I do plan on buying at the show....materials. The 16/0 for 28's fills in another gap, I do tie small for a local tailwater.

Lol. I thought you were tying.

To simplify thread, IMO, is to simplify what you can tie efficiently. One thread is a pain in the arse in some cases and yet excels in others. I have a line-up of threads to make me faster and cleaner.

Thread is so inexpensive but used on every fly. Thread and dubbing are the easiest ways of altering the vast majority of patterns; that is trout patterns.

If you're really a streamer guy, you don't need much in thread. The UTC family and GSP should be all you'll ever need.

My simplifying started at learning what materials could be substituted so I didn't find myself buying something "special" for a single pattern. 99% of the time the "special" is for us tyers or to make them not worth the time tying so we are buying. Lol.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

 

[whalensdad]

Nice Ties Ard! :thumb::thumb:

 

[gc59]

I still subscribe to 3/0 (salt patterns) 6/0 (trout patterns) thinking. Danville of course.

 

[bigal36]

A few questions -

When do you use floss vs thread? How many strands and when do you use them?

When do you use vinyl ribbing?

 

[eastfly66]

Im using vinyl rib right now for stonefly patterns and floss for soft hackle bodies , strand count depends on the size of the hook. I'm sure there are lots of other patterns for the materials but that is what I'm on now.

 

[clsmith131]

I mostly use .008" (or .2mm) clear mono, or thread in 6/0, or 140-150 denier. But I tie 80% streamer and baitfish patterns. On any pattern I do, I may use 2-3 different threads. I may lay down a white base along the shank and trim and glue it. Then tie the bulk of the fly with a mono. Then go back and add a black for a spot behind a baitfish eye, or red for a gill. I find thread to be one of the cheapest, easiest [to manage and store] ways to dial in a pattern and make it yours. Floss is great because it comes in such vibrant colors. Use it for egg sacs or hot spots, but it is not strong so you cant put much tension on it. I like to use it under palmered flash bodies.

 

[ts47]

I am looking to symplify my thread assortment and with the show coming I plan on stocking up. I have accumulated a number of spools but in various deniers. This is the result of being an impulsive tyer and jumping on whatever pattern grabs my eye in the moment...dam that utube.

Anyway, what I am thinking is I should be able to be fully stocked with getting all the popular colors in 70 , 210 and Flymasters flat waxed for the big salt stuff. I likw UTC because they label the color and have that little cap to keep the loose thread end not in use.

What do you guys think ? will UTC 70 & 210 cover most all fresh water or do I need 140 also ? What about these 6/0w and 8/0w I have ? I can't even remember what I got them for but I'm guessing something small.

I'm not 100% sure I follow your question. So here's my attempt at a response...

I would sort your thread by denier (not label). For example, UTC 70 is the same as 8/0, and UTC 140 the same as 6/0. If you put all these threads together UTC 70 and anything 8/0 in one batch and filled in any missing colors with your favorite thread, you would have a complete set for small trout flies.

I would suggest purchasing UTC 140 and combining it with anything 6/0 you already own, and fill in colors as needed. This is a good size thread for many regular size trout patterns.

I only use the UTC 210 stuff for larger streamers and only own 5 colors.

The big difference, and this may be an oversimplification, between thread is weather it lies flat (UTC, VEEVUS, Danville, etc) or not (UNI, Orvis, etc). On the spools, they usually have either the groove you can put your tread in or a notch cut in the edge of the spool at an angle. Both designs will hold thread securely so it doesn't unravel on you. If a notch doesn't exist, a careful cut at an angle with a razor blade will fix the problem. I would not let your miss-matched brands be a negative or a cause to purchase something different - if this was what you were thinking.

 

[gt05254]

Veevus 14/0 for everything.
Gary

 

[silver creek]

I am looking to symplify my thread assortment and with the show coming I plan on stocking up. I have accumulated a number of spools but in various deniers. This is the result of being an impulsive tyer and jumping on whatever pattern grabs my eye in the moment...dam that utube.

Anyway, what I am thinking is I should be able to be fully stocked with getting all the popular colors in 70 , 210 and Flymasters flat waxed for the big salt stuff. I likw UTC because they label the color and have that little cap to keep the loose thread end not in use.

What do you guys think ? will UTC 70 & 210 cover most all fresh water or do I need 140 also ? What about these 6/0w and 8/0w I have ? I can't even remember what I got them for but I'm guessing something small.

The way I approach tying thread is to consider the properties of the thread first.

If we think whether a fly rod is made of bamboo, graphite, or fiberglass is important, why do we most often ignore whether a tying thread is made of GSP, nylon or polyester as the first consideration in the properties that we want in a tying thread? Most threads are either nylon or polyester just like most rods are fiberglass or graphite.

Nylon and polyester have different properties. They are both about the same strength so that is not a great issue. However, nylon STRETCHES about 25% and polyester stretches about 15% before breaking. NYLON also takes dyes better than polyester so nylon threads can come in brighter colors.

Stretch is important in fly tying. It can be both an advantage and a disadvantage. The ability of nylon to stretch means that the stretch can warn a fly tyer when a nylon thread is about to break, Polyester threads have less stretch and give less of a warning. So nylon is an easier thread for beginners.

Nylon threads then contract more and the fly body and wraps are tighter because the nylon tying thread contracts more. However, over time this contraction relaxes and the nylon thread loosens a bit. Polyester thread does not stretch as much so it loosens less.

Then we need to consider whether the thread is flat, twisted, or bonded. Flat non bonded thread can be spit for spit thread dubbing. Flat thread can be twisted by spinning the bobbin when we want the tread to be round to hold materials with a tighter grip. Twisted non bonded thread can be untwisted. But many threads are both twisted and bonded and so their form is fixed. A flat bonded thread can be twisted into a round shape but it cannot be split.

So a twisted bonded thread is the least adaptable, the flat bonded thread is next, and the un-bonded twisted and un-bonded flat are the most adaptable.

Since it is easier to twist a thread than to untwist a thread, I prefer a FLAT NON BONDED thread because it is more versatile.

Now on to your question.

UTC in the 70, 140, and 210 deniers is a NYLON untwisted and un-bonded thread, so it is an excellent choice. It can be spit. The diameter of UTC is 0.028, 0.041, and 0.069 mm respectively for the 70, 140, and 210 deniers. Breaking strength is 450, 900, and 1800 grams respectively.

Veevus is the alternative as a flat non bonded polyester thread. It has become very popular amongst tyers.

So lets compare UTC 70, 140, and 210 to Veevus 16/0, 12/0, and 6/0 thread which are polyester untwisted and un-bonded threads. Veevus 16/0, 12/0, and 6/0 thread diameters are 0.038, 0.047, and 0.65 mm with breaking strengths of 430, 530, and 1000 grams respectively.

Veevus is considered to be a very strong thread BUT we can see from the chart below where this data was published, UTC is actually stronger for diameter than Veevus. The difference in strength is explained by the fact that for a given diameter of the Veevus thread, there less material as measured by denier.

For the respective Veevus 16/0, 12/0, and 6/0 threads that are about the same diameter as UTC, the respective deniers are 50, 70, 110 compared to UTC’s 70, 140, and 210 deniers.

I think you have chosen well to use UTC as your thread.

The data above was published in this chart Fly Tying Thread Table | Global FlyFisher | A large sortable table comparing more than 90 fly-tying threads.

The appropriate section is posted below