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  1. #11

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    Quote Originally Posted by flytie09 View Post
    Here’s some history on the Hendrickson... light or dark.

    https://flyfishersinternational.org/...-12-225750-000

    The Hendrickson Mayfly

    Match the color of the hackle to the mayflies in your area. The Hendricksons can be used for several hatches.

    Or if you want to just buy one for now.... go with the medium dun.
    I know Jim Abbs who published https://flyfishersinternational.org/...-12-225750-000 He is the former editor of Wisconsin Trout, the publication of Wisconsin TU.

    When I was a beginner, the first major Wisconsin Hatch was and still is the Hendrickson (E. subvaria). So I also read about the urine stained fur of which Jim writes:

    "Interestingly, this classic Catskill pattern includes one of the most unusual materials: urine-stained belly
    fur of a red fox.
    I don't know how you can tell if the fur is properly stained and I have even heard of some
    fly tyers trying to accomplish this critical step on their own. Who knows where they obtained the fox urine.

    The staining requirement was not part of the original Hendrickson, but came to be the standard based
    upon the colorful imagination of famed fly tyer and author Art Flick."


    The urine stained fur is actually the lower abdominal pelvic fur of a vixen (female) fox that is indeed stained urine. It has a pinkish cast. So I went and bought a female fox pelt and hung in from the some of the pipes in my basement. It scared the cr*p out of the lady who cleaned our home. But I digress.

    Anyway, it turned out that the Hendricksons in Wisconsin are not the same color as that of Art Flick. This was before I got to know Gary Borger and it was my first lesson about regional differences in identical insects. So I still have the urine stained fur and I have yet to use it to tie a fly. Can you imagine buying an entire female red fox pelt for a 6"X6" piece of urine stained fur. Such was my initial diligence as a beginning fly tier.



    Unfortunately my E. Subvaria the natural did not look like this



    But this



    So what do I as a dark Hendrickson dry fly? I use the most popular dry fly sold in the USA, a parachute Adams. Although the body of the natural looks dark, remember that the abdomen of the natural is what the trout see and it is a lighter color.

    Here is the belly of a dark Hendrickson male from Troutnut.

    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  3. #12

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    Silver.... you are the man. To have actual urine stained red fox fur to be the most precise fly tier you could be is amazing.

    I’ll combine colors and achieve the same effect.

    Reminds me of a story over at another ff forum where a poster tried to clean urine stained rams wool in the kitchen with his wife away. And the hilarious results as I’m sure you can imagine.
    Last edited by flytie09; 02-03-2019 at 03:00 PM.


    “If I fished only to capture fish, my fishing trips would have ended long ago.”
    ~Zane Grey

    " . . . shouldn't a man stand on his own two feet and catch his own steelhead? Maybe put out some effort and find his own fish just for the fun of it?"
    ~Syd Glasso

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  5. #13

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    Quote Originally Posted by flytie09 View Post
    Silver.... you are the man. To have actual urine stained red fox fur to be the most precise fly tier you could be is amazing.
    Here is what I have left of the fox. It really is a great fine fur that makes dubbing for dry flies like PMDs and Sulphurs as well.

    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  7. #14

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    Quote Originally Posted by flytie09 View Post
    I'm surprised you actually spoke with the Feather Emporium guy.......that is the real story.
    Why do you say that?

    Also, I am almost certain now that I ordered the wrong hackle.

  8. #15

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    It's a long story for many out there......

    Anyone dealt with "Feather Emporium"?

    The Feather Emporium...

    David has a reputation of being extremely difficult to contact. It's hit or miss.

    Did you get the stained fox fur?

    On a serious note....Don't sweat it.......try them with what you have. Fish can be persnickity at times.....but not as a general rule. Color is a criteria I use when selecting a fly.....but it's after size and shape.

    Good luck


    “If I fished only to capture fish, my fishing trips would have ended long ago.”
    ~Zane Grey

    " . . . shouldn't a man stand on his own two feet and catch his own steelhead? Maybe put out some effort and find his own fish just for the fun of it?"
    ~Syd Glasso

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  10. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Bayou La Batre, AL
    Posts
    1,089

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    It's been my experience when working with anything "dunn" shades vary between suppliers for everything (i.e., feathers, hackle, dubbing, synthetics, etc., etc.). Find a color that works for you and bookmark where you got it. This is about the only way to keep consistency in your purchase of materials. Most will be fairly close in shade but a few will be a bit more drastic from the others. Just have to take the tips and hits you get on here and gamble on a few different ones for starters. Also note that the color in the photos may be slightly different from what you reveive. It's all about light. And don't look at the color inside in artificial light when you receive them you check them out. Go outside in natural light. After all, that's where you'll be using them.
    Kevin
    "Fight like you're the 3rd monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark"
    "Not every day is filled with sunshine. Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue"
    "If God had intended for man to only fish on weekends, He never would have created the other 5 days of the week."

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  12. #17

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevind62 View Post
    It's been my experience when working with anything "dunn" shades vary between suppliers for everything (i.e., feathers, hackle, dubbing, synthetics, etc., etc.). Find a color that works for you and bookmark where you got it. This is about the only way to keep consistency in your purchase of materials. Most will be fairly close in shade but a few will be a bit more drastic from the others. Just have to take the tips and hits you get on here and gamble on a few different ones for starters. Also note that the color in the photos may be slightly different from what you reveive. It's all about light. And don't look at the color inside in artificial light when you receive them you check them out. Go outside in natural light. After all, that's where you'll be using them.
    Excellent point!

    Also with dubbing that is going to be wet (nymph or streamer) wet the dubbing to get a color match that is closer to the natural. The color will darken when wet.

    If you are particular, you can also put floatant on you dry dubbing but I personally think this is less important because the trout is looking up and the bottom of the dry fly is in the shadows. Bit if you are compulsive you are probably someone who will check dry dubbing as well.

    Now here is the curious thing about wet dubbing.

    We assume that the darker shade of color of wet dubbing that we see is actually the same darker shade that the trout see. That is actually not true. "Submerged" dubbing is a slightly lighter shaded than "wet" dubbing. The question then becomes, is this phenomenon "self correcting" in that we remove insects from the water and they are wet when we note the color. So we are matching the "wet" color the insect with the "wet" color of the dubbing and is that good enough? I would think so.

    You can make yourself a little nuts thinking of how to get the perfect match. I believe in the "close enough" theory. We don't need to be exact. Gary Borger in his BCS Color System developed a series of colors that were "close enough" to match the color of the insect.



    You captured the insect and then matched it to the BCS color that was the closest match and then used that shade of dubbing for tying a close enough fly.

    Trout Fishing and the Color of Wet Dubbing | Artificial Fly | Insects

    wet dubbing changes color - Google Search

    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  14. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Bayou La Batre, AL
    Posts
    1,089

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    Absolutely agree with the "close enough" theory! There are way too many factors to take in to consideration when trying to figure out just what the fish see as far as color and color shade. Sun light, light angle, cloud cover (heavy/light), water clarity and color, and on and on and on. All of these things impact the way light reflects on an object influencing it's hue and shade. The main thing I use for a driver in deciding what color and shade I want is contrast. Whether its contrast to the water or contrast within the color of the insect. Subtle contrast vs drastic contrast. Don't get caught up on a theory of trying to be "exact". No two insects are exactly the same color shade. Two insects of the same species will vary slightly in shade of the same color. This invariably has a lot to do with the "age" of the insect. From the time the insect hatches as is goes through it's metamorphosis stages in each stage it will darken or lighten with time as it phases in to it's next stage. So don't beat yourself up and use too much time and energy on this. It's a very good and legitimate question for folks just getting in to tying. You don't want to spend a lot of time, effort, and money creating something that's not going to give you results. We've all probably asked this same question at some point early on. And many others so keep them coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
    You can make yourself a little nuts thinking of how to get the perfect match. I believe in the "close enough" theory. We don't need to be exact. Gary Borger in his BCS Color System developed a series of colors that were "close enough" to match the color of the insect.
    Kevin
    "Fight like you're the 3rd monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark"
    "Not every day is filled with sunshine. Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue"
    "If God had intended for man to only fish on weekends, He never would have created the other 5 days of the week."

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  16. #19

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    Quote Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
    Excellent point!

    Also with dubbing that is going to be wet (nymph or streamer) wet the dubbing to get a color match that is closer to the natural. The color will darken when wet.

    If you are particular, you can also put floatant on you dry dubbing but I personally think this is less important because the trout is looking up and the bottom of the dry fly is in the shadows. Bit if you are compulsive you are probably someone who will check dry dubbing as well.

    Now here is the curious thing about wet dubbing.

    We assume that the darker shade of color of wet dubbing that we see is actually the same darker shade that the trout see. That is actually not true. "Submerged" dubbing is a slightly lighter shaded than "wet" dubbing. The question then becomes, is this phenomenon "self correcting" in that we remove insects from the water and they are wet when we note the color. So we are matching the "wet" color the insect with the "wet" color of the dubbing and is that good enough? I would think so.

    You can make yourself a little nuts thinking of how to get the perfect match. I believe in the "close enough" theory. We don't need to be exact. Gary Borger in his BCS Color System developed a series of colors that were "close enough" to match the color of the insect.



    You captured the insect and then matched it to the BCS color that was the closest match and then used that shade of dubbing for tying a close enough fly.

    Trout Fishing and the Color of Wet Dubbing | Artificial Fly | Insects

    wet dubbing changes color - Google Search

    Very cool video along the Little Lehigh.... spent many hours up there in that exact spot. Size 24 green scud..... I’ll be ready next time.

    Thanks for sharing that one Silver.


    “If I fished only to capture fish, my fishing trips would have ended long ago.”
    ~Zane Grey

    " . . . shouldn't a man stand on his own two feet and catch his own steelhead? Maybe put out some effort and find his own fish just for the fun of it?"
    ~Syd Glasso

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  18. #20

    Default Re: What’s a light/medium/dark dun hackle?

    If you tie a lot of dries, I would try to be as selective as possible and pick the right cape. If you you're like me and only tie the occasional pattern, it's hard to beat the WF 100 pack. Not a good value at $20 for 10 or so feathers, but they're pre-sorted by size, are of good quality, and at $20 you can buy several shades and have enough to tie a bunch of flies without breaking the bank.

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