To Barb or not to Barb?

[ts47]

OK, so I'm getting back into fly tying and fishing after a bit of a hiatus. I feel like I stopped when these new barbless hooks were becoming more main stream. Now, they seem to be much more prevalent. I'm also noticing a lot more of these jig style hooks with much larger gapes. If you will humor my lack of knowledge and give me some practical advice, I have a few questions. And yes, some of this does parallel Scotty's post These barbless hooks these days which I am also following. It just didn't seem appropriate to pull his thread off course with some of the below questions.

Why go barbless? Is this trend something that has gained popularity solely because it does less damage to the fish - or is there something more to it? If it's to protect the fish, is there that much difference between a micro-barb hook and barbless? To take things a step further... What about a barb on say a size 6 or larger woolly bugger?

When comparing catch rates of a micro-barb hook to one that is barbless, do you loose more fish or need to manage the line differently? It also appears, and I could be wrong, that some of these new barbless hooks have longer points to them and some even point toward the shank of the hook rather than straight. Does any of this play into the prior question?

Why do hook gapes seem to be getting larger? How do these larger gapes play into catching fish? Do they change in any way the hook size you might choose for a particular fly pattern?

Please understand that I am not trying to advocate anything with this post or my questions. I'm really just trying to catch myself up with what seems to be going on, why it's going on, and what effect it will have on my fishing.

 

[TristianSutton]

Larger gap shorter shanks make it harder for fish to toss the hook, barbless hooks penetrate much easier than barbed counter parts, generally speaking if ya lose a fish on a good competition style barbless hook it would got lost on a barbed hook, they definitely do way less to fish when unhooking

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[philly]

Main reason for me to use barbless hooks is it's easier to get the hook out of me. Also makes it easier to release the fish. You can see the penetration in this picture and the advantages of using a wide gape hook.



I prefer wide gape hooks. Especially with smaller flies. I tie a lot of poppers and until recently there weren't a lot of fly hooks with wide gape and I switched over to Aberdeen style hooks or bass worm hooks for my poppers and sliders.
I think you do need to fight a fish differently with a barbless hooks, especially a fish that jumps a lot, like a smallmouth bass. You have to maintain pressure on the fish.

 

[trev]

Barbless also come out of your finger or ear easier.

There is an argument that the barb acts like a saw when the fish changes direction and enlarges the hole to the point that the hook can fall out. If you poke a barbed hook through a piece of paper and poke a similar barbless hook through the paper you will see a huge difference in the size of the hole.
I have been mashing barbs down or breaking them off since the '70s because I can get them to be sharper with a smaller cross section that penetrates easier and deeper. I was doing this even when I was killing every fish because I was/am convinced that I loose fewer fish with sharp barbless hooks.
That they come out a bit easier on releases doesn't hurt.
There are also places where barbless are required and even my mashed down barbs will often catch on the nylon stocking test.

 

[bigjim5589]

Todd, I feel that these guys have covered the reasons to use barbless or de-barbed hooks.

Much of the use now with the jig style hooks is due to the popularity of Czech type flies ( Polish, French or whatever style they may be). I've tied some flies on jig hooks for many years, but usually they were larger streamers for bass or saltwater use. They ride with the point up, and for some conditions that's needed to reduce snagging the bottom or various obstacles in the water.

The wider gaps, may be to fill a need for better hook-ups, and because I think that some brands are having them made with wider gaps per hook sizing as a marketing point. So, when compared to other brands of similar size, the wider gap convinces folks it's a better choice, and it may be.

It has been debated, that barbless hooks can cause fish kills, especially with trout. These hooks with longer barbless points can penetrate into the brain area of a trouts head. IMO, that's possible, but also possible with barbed hooks. The only way to prevent any mortality, if you feel it's a big concern is not to fish.

I don't use a lot of barbless hooks, because I don't do much trout fishing and the hooks I use often are not made barbless. However, for my own fishing purposes, I de-barb hooks, and for all the reasons mentioned here. I cannot say I've lost many fish because of the lack of a barb. Losing fish is part of fishing, it's going to happen.

Unless you have to use a barbless hook due to regulations, you still have a choice in your purchasing. I have started to add some of the small barbless jig hooks to my stocks, because they have become popular. I'm tying commercially again, and know that folks want that style of hook. It doesn't mean that every hook needs to be barbless. I also have been tying some types of flies on larger jig hooks that I didn't before, again because folks want them.

IMO, if you intend to tie the styles of flies that are now popular and commonly tied on barbless or barbless jig hooks, then get some of the hooks, or plan on de-barbing any that you do purchase that are barbed.

IMO, there are no pro's to using a hook with a barb unless you're bait fishing, and then it's only there to keep the bait on the hook.

 

[trev]

As to the wider gape, if I recall the history correctly the gape is the standard by which hooks are/were sized, and the length of the shank can vary widely. A 6X long would be a streamer, a 2X long makes a fair nymph, a 2X short could be a caddis larva or a midge pupa, 7X short an egg hook, or something along that line. The wide gape (or as it seems to have changed to gap on the internet) is accomplished by using a 2X short or shorter shank. There is no real standard between manufacturers, but in general the Japanese hooks are number smaller for a given gape size than US or European sizes.
I seem to recall reading a statement that a standard shank was 2.5 times the gape. But then they started bending the shanks til there is no place to measure from or to. So... it gets to be sorta pick a length you want and chose a shape, whatever the gape looks like when the fly is complete will either satisfy you or indicate a different hook should be used. If following and pattern/recipe I'd likely use the hook recommended. Many of my smaller dries are tied on 2X short hooks because I can use larger tippet.

some comparisons; Hook Charts | Killroys Fly Tying
Hook selection | Global FlyFisher | Hook comparison charts are at best fickle or at worst too confusing and inaccurate to use. It is critical to remember that this chart does in no way list equivalent hooks but attempts to list hooks based on similar applications.
Fish hook size guide

The best sizing and comparison site I've seen; flyhooks.org

 

[fishing hobo]

When I just started fly fishing it wsn't unusual hitting myself with the fly, thankfully none penetrated flesh BUT it had poked a hole in my jacket and cap a few times and it made me go the barbless route as I would have hatedto have attended hospital with a hook buried in my head!

 

[Bent Undergrowth]

I may not win any popularity contests here, but I still prefer barbed hooks in some situations:

1) Hopper patterns - I like to ‘half-pinch’ the barb or sometimes just leave it, because I almost always attach some sort of dropper and the nub prevents slippage.

2) Midge/18 or smaller anything - the barb is so small on these flies, I have a hard time believing it damages the fishes anatomy to any significant extent during removal. Plus, I’ll take any advantage I can get playing fish with tiny hooks. FWIW I also like wide-gap in these sizes as it seems to (anecdotally) improve hookups.

To be honest, I mostly pinch barbs for my own benefit. It’s just easier to remove from clothes, nets, fish and skin without causing damage. I think the only fish that really suffer from barbed hooks are the very small ones with immature cartilage/bone development. Their value, from an ecosystem perspective, is dependent upon where you fish (another unpopular position among C&R anglers, but sometimes too many small fish can be detrimental to the food web).

 

[ts47]

I appreciate all the comments. A few things I'll add...

First, I have been to the hospital to remove a barb from a crank bait treble hook back in my spin fishing days. It was interesting standing up in the emergency waiting room, holding my thumb in the air with a crank bait hanging from it, and loudly asking if anyone present had a pair of wire cutters. I got some very surprised looks. Fortunately, there was a plumber in the room who took me out to his truck and at least got the lure cut off the end of the treble hook that was embedded in my thumb. The rest was the doc numbing my thumb, pushing the hook the rest of the way through, cutting off the barb, and then backing the hook out.

I've also removed a few size 16 and smaller barbed hooks from my arm. It usually happens when making a gentle cast in tight quarters and a gust of wind catches the fly and blows it into me as it passes.

I did some online reading since starting this thread. The few articles I've read all suggest that using a barbed hook may decrease the number of fish lost. With the longer hook points on some of today's barbless hooks, I'm not sure that statement would still hold true. I could imagine that a longer point, though barbless, may even the odds. I dunno... I already own a lot of barbed hooks that won't get thrown away. I may have to give barbless or crushing the barb a try and see how I like fishing that way. I do typically practice catch and release and have had the occasion when removing a barbed hook from a fish's mouth was a problem. I also do things like try to keep the fish in the water and revive it before releasing. As someone mentioned already, it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with smaller hooks.

In the end, it seems like a matter of personal choice. As I stated in my initial post, I'm not trying to advocate anything one way or the other. It just doesn't seem like there is much of an argument being made for keeping the barb. The exception would be if a dropper were tied to a hook or bait fishing. In these cases, the barb serves a needed purpose.

 

[ts47]

As to the wider gape, if I recall the history correctly the gape is the standard by which hooks are/were sized, and the length of the shank can vary widely. A 6X long would be a streamer, a 2X long makes a fair nymph, a 2X short could be a caddis larva or a midge pupa, 7X short an egg hook, or something along that line. The wide gape (or as it seems to have changed to gap on the internet) is accomplished by using a 2X short or shorter shank. There is no real standard between manufacturers, but in general the Japanese hooks are number smaller for a given gape size than US or European sizes.
I seem to recall reading a statement that a standard shank was 2.5 times the gape. But then they started bending the shanks til there is no place to measure from or to. So... it gets to be sorta pick a length you want and chose a shape, whatever the gape looks like when the fly is complete will either satisfy you or indicate a different hook should be used. If following and pattern/recipe I'd likely use the hook recommended. Many of my smaller dries are tied on 2X short hooks because I can use larger tippet.

some comparisons; Hook Charts | Killroys Fly Tying
Hook selection | Global FlyFisher | Hook comparison charts are at best fickle or at worst too confusing and inaccurate to use. It is critical to remember that this chart does in no way list equivalent hooks but attempts to list hooks based on similar applications.
Fish hook size guide

The best sizing and comparison site I've seen; flyhooks.org

Thanks for the added info Trev. I like the look of the wider gape hooks, especially in smaller sizes. Wrapping wire on the shank of smaller size hooks before tying the fly can fill up much of the gape. I guess having some extra room in there could be a good thing.

Reading your post reminds me of a comment a fly shop owner made to me some time back. I was trying to buy longer shank hooks to tie woolly buggers. He suggested that I forgo the longer hook in favor of going up a size and using a more standard length shank. He said I would have the same size fly but with a larger hook, and stand a better chance of catching fish.

I'm also remembering a comment that I think Slvercreek once made. He suggested twisting the hook point a little sideways in smaller size flies. If using a smaller gape hook or in my example above, it could increase hookups.

 

[trev]

#16 2Xshort = #18 wide gape #12 2X short = #14 wide gape more or less

They didn't make the gape wider they shortened the shank. You can also tie the fly so that only half or 2/3 of the shank is used to achieve a smaller silhouette on a larger hook.

 

[ts47]

#16 2Xshort = #18 wide gape #12 2X short = #14 wide gape more or less

They didn't make the gape wider they shortened the shank. You can also tie the fly so that only half or 2/3 of the shank is used to achieve a smaller silhouette on a larger hook.

Thanks! This is helpful.

 

[JoJer]

Ooh goodie; I get to tell this story again. My first rod was a 9'7wt Shakespeare composite rod. Came with a plastic reel the design of which was adapted from a New Years party noise maker. It could function somewhat in either capacity. I was still fishing it like a spin rod. Trying to throw a weighted bugger for bluegill.
Every false cast, I could hear that thing go past my ear: Zing! Zing! I became a proponent of barbless hooks at that moment.
We have lots of water with single barbless rules. I mash them all at the vise.