Underhand cast and Traditional cast

[runningfish]

Well, I am having fun learning 2 handed casting and seeing the results. However, since I don't have a teacher; I have to focus in only the important stuffs.

My 2H casting is mostly using the traditional cast with the top hand doing the majority of the work. I am pretty happy with the loop, line speed, etc.
I watched a lot of videos of Henrik and Goran who are suggesting to the use of the underhand more; and I do agree that the underhand cast are more energy efficient than the traditional cast with the dominant top hand.

So, my questions are.
1. Is it really matters casting underhand or traditional? Is there such as thing as one is right and one is wrong?
2. is the underhand casting works better with longer spey rod with heavier head?

 

[Ard]

Hi,

I don't see a right or wrong. I was using the bottom hand a lot and never knew it had a name. I think that as you go you'll find that sometimes bottom hand as the power source is more relaxing. It is something I slip in and out of without even thinking.

I have not ever had any sort of instruction. I just took up the long rods and began fishing with them. Having fished wet fly with single hand rods for so long was a big help I think but to this day even when I am casting well I don't know what I'm doing. That's not completely true........... I'm having fun and I believe that people who know all the cast names can identify my casting. I just don't know all the names.

You're having some fun and that's the good part.

 

[randyflycaster]

When executing an underhand cast 70 per cent or so of the power is applied with the bottom hand. Underhand casting is generally used when casting short, Scandinavian shooting-head lines. I guess you can also use an underhand cast when casting a Skagit head.

I don't think underhand casting is used when casting longer-head lines.

Randy

 

[tyler_durden]

I agree. From my understanding, using more bottom hand helps when casting shorter heads (something to do with the rod tip traveling in a short, flat trajectory before the stop) and its not as desireable with long lines where one's casting stroke isn't as compact. There's another, European based flyfishing website (I'm not sure I'm allowed to name names) that goes into a tremendous amount of depth concerning the physics of fly casting. It's a tremendous time waster

 

[runningfish]

Ard, it is true the underhand cast is very relaxing and i can do it very slowly. The traditional cast is more natural too. Perhaps, I can do both equally in the future.

Randy,
At the moment I can only shoot about 10ft of running line with underhand cast without dumping the line which is what I actually need. However, I watched some Japanese underhand casting classes and they are getting good distance.

Is the longer rod will help with underhand cast? I am just curious.

 

[tyler_durden]

I could be wrong but I believe that shorter rods encourage more bottom hand application of power. I have a couple of very short and light switch rods and at the beginning of the day I'll often cast them with just the bottom hand to get in a groove (the top hand just cradles and doesn't grip the cork). Id never attempt this with my longer rods out of fear of getting instant tendonitis.

 

[randyflycaster]

Running Fish,

It's important that your spey rod and spey line match. If you're casting a short rod you'll be better off casting a short-head line.

On my 12'6" foot rod I use a traditional Scandi head. I would not use a long-head (often called a long-belly) line.

Here's a link about Scandi lines from Rio:

Scandi Shooting Head - Spey Fly Lines | RIO

If you're using a shorter switch rod, you should use a line designed for a shorter line:

Switch Line - Spey Fly Lines | RIO

IMHO it's impossible to diagnose casting problems from an internet bulletin board.

You should, however, be able to shoot more line. When executing an underhand cast I begin the cast by only rotating my hips. This is my loading move. Then I execute my power snap. To me, this resembles cracking a whip. The rod tip is never lowered from the target line. In fact I either aim my forward cast parallel to the water or slightly upwards.

In other words, the underhand casting stroke is very short. Less is more.

Randy

 

[runningfish]

Tyler, I made an O ring with my thumb and index finger and let the bottom hand holding the running line. Tendonitis is a very familiar term for me as I am still nursing a hamstring tendonitis in my left leg from running. They come and go like a cat.

Randy, Thank you for the tips.
One question, does the bottom grip must hit the mid of the belly at the end of the snap?
I tend to stop a little on the left side of the belly.

 

[randyflycaster]

I tend to end the underhand cast with the butt in the middle of my belly or chest. (I tend to cast with my hands a little higher than most.) I don't think it really matters if the butt is slightly on your left side.

This video of Goran Andersson might help:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnc40QQKiVo]Underhand Technique - Göran Andersson performs the world's best Double Hand Flycasting Technique - YouTube[/ame]

At the end of the forward cast I use my upper arm as sort of a brake. Also, to help me make an abrupt stop I squeeze the rod handle with my top hand as hard as I can at the end of the cast.

Randy

 

[cb]

So, my questions are.
1. Is it really matters casting underhand or traditional? Is there such as thing as one is right and one is wrong?
2. is the underhand casting works better with longer spey rod with heavier head?

No matter what you read - a double handed rod means two hands are used in the cast.

They work together and both wrists 'snap-rotate' in the same direction - anti clockwise.

The bottom hand drifts forwards and down and then is pulled back towards you while the wrist snaps and at the same time the top hand drifts forward and down and snaps forward away from you.

They should move roughly the same distance and either stop and start at the same time (50:50) OR as I do - 'kick start' the whole rotation using the bottom hand like a trigger.

Either hand can dominate – but it should not be by much at all. Both play an important role – they complement each other. The actually keep each other under control.

The rod tip should move 90 degrees on the delivery stroke. No more and no less. The rod should start 45 degrees sloping behind you and finish sloping 45 degrees away from you. (Longer headed lines may need you to 'drift' either side of this angle to allow time and to stop over-sudden power - but this remains the 'business' range in terms of power applcation.)

The strict adherence to this is a clear indicator of how good a caster you are. Practice in front of a mirror or refection from patios doors etc. I would recommend you dont let the rod butt hit you in the belly or anywhere else for that matter. If you do, then your wrists may not be in the correct position to snap rotate efficiently nor stop the rod quickly at the end of rotation.

Getting the two hands working together is the most difficult part of casting the double handed rod to master - especially for those used to single handed casting. Get this right and the rest is easy!

I personally think talk of underhand and top hand is unhelpful. All Spey casts are two handed casts. Both hands are equally important and work together - just watch the video above to see .

 

[runningfish]

Randy, I have watched that video and another one by Henrik.

I think your tip on using the upper hand as a break and CB's tip snapping it on the forward stroke could be the answer.

So far, I am only using the top hand just to position the rod to the back and let the bottom hand does all the forward casting movement. I'll make the upper wrist a bit snappy and see how t goes.

Cb. I'll try to see my shadow the next time I go practice. I usually practice in the morning and the sun would perfectly hit my left side and as a right handed caster I can turn my head to my right side and can see my rod position perfectly. thanks again for the tips.

 

[cb]

The 'brake system' - mentioned by Randy - at the end of the cast is a very good idea - apply top and bottom equally - then release and drift if you like after that - it doesn't matter then - the line has gone! Here is a great video showing the combination of 90 degree rotation and wrist snap. This is fundamental to all double handed casting.

[ame=http://vimeo.com/60932088]Rod Movement: Overhead Cast - Spey Cast on Vimeo[/ame]

Cheers

Colin

 

[runningfish]

Colin eh?
I used to know an English guy who lives in Cambridge by that first name. I believe his last name is Bates. Going to name my future son as Colin also if I ever going to have one.

anyway, back to fishing.

That video really shows the 90° rod angle. I think currently mine's look like a slice of pizza using the under hand. and about 67.5° using the top hand cast (1 o'clock back cast and 10 o'clock release).

Two more weeks 'til the practice day. Can't wait.

 

[randyflycaster]

For me, the reason I apply most of my power with the bottom hand (when executing a underhand cast) is to use my top hand as a brake.

Other than that, I don't see why more power should be applied with the bottom hand, though many will argue otherwise. I've read many of those arguments and they still don't make sense to me.

If I want to lengthen the length of my forward casting stroke, I increase my hip rotation and therefore increase the length of my loading move.

I struggled for a long time with underhand casting because, being a traditional fly caster who devoted so much time to trying to cast longer and longer distances, I kept moving my top arm way too far away from my body during the forward cast.

Also, underhand casting is touch-and-go casting. I try to begin my forward cast loading move just before my anchor touches down. If the anchor gets stuck on the water it will take too much power to lift it off, and it will then be impossible to make a long cast.

In terms of the angle of the spey rod at the end of the back swing: FOR ME that depends on how high I execute my lift. If I'm standing in waist-deep water I'm going to make a higher lift than if I'm standing in ankle-deep water.

Also, also, because a longer rod lifts more line off the water, the longer the spey rod - assuming I'm using the same short-head line - the lower I execute my lift, and therefore the lower the angle of the spey rod at the end of the back swing. (I try to keep the rod at the same angle to the water during the swing.)

Finally, to add some energy to my D-loop I execute my back swing a little faster. To do this without blowing my anchor, I again execute a lower lift.

My two cents, only.

Take what you like and leave the rest,

Randy

 

[wannafish]

Good stuff here! Thanks

 

[runningfish]

Randy, me being new to fly fishing and not really devoted or stuck in a certain style of castings means I get to reset and relearn new technique. The blow to blow explanation is easy to follow and I'll see if I can put them into practice.

I'll eventually find my own way to do things "right" but until then I'll keep on asking for help.