Single spey tactics for small creeks

[ia_trouter]

There has been a lot of single spey chatter on other threads later. I know we got a false start or two on the subject in the past, but I have some questions. I fish a lot of small water, many of you have seen it on the Driftless Area forum. Sometimes that is considerably above average for my end of the region. Anyway, I am not trying to spey cast an Appalachian stream but it's small water and generally the swinging spots are few and far between. 8-12ft wide is fairly typical. A typical place to take short singlehand. It's been a bear to overhand cast the past three years due to excess rain and head high brush most all season. Occasional trees overhang water. Pretty much everywhere, there is a reason to complicate OH casting. WAY too much time spent climbing the bank to get a fly out of the grass. I roll cast some of course but that alone doesn't get it with a small rod.

I don't want to dwell on the gear much but could this work? 3WT 7-6 rod with a 4WT WF line. It's a MED fast rod on IM6 tech. It's not real whippy like my CGR glass rods I prefer to OH cast with. I do have other rod options if necessary. This just doesn't seem like a candidate for a Commando line. Probably just unnecessary commotion on the water and I don't need to bomb cast.

On to technique..... I love to swing streamers and I do that when it's an option. I'll run out of creek access if insist on only that. I typically walk upstream. I can't walk through the pools but I can position myself in the center of the stream often. I typically walk upstream so I am not kicking up mud where I am about to fish. Some stretches are definitely silty after these runoffs.

In the name of not making this overly confusing how would you approach this specific water? I am facing the creek and it's creek right. I'll enter the creek and head upstream. I'm right handed. I can single spey and work my way upstream, but I'll be stripping or recasting very soon. Seems like a better option than casting down stream. I'm guessing if I can figure this out, those days on bigger creeks should seem easy.

Thanks, and I do speak speyanese so be brief in your answers if you wish. I'll ask more questions as necessary.

Thanks

 

[trev]

Can you walk the bank, or limited to wade?

 

[Ard]

Right or left, you want to go downstream with streamer or wet fly not upstream. Arrive before daylight, use head lamp if not familiar with Creekside and hike upstream. Once you can see well enough to cast begin working your way back toward where you started walking upstream. Cast in any way you can in order to be accurate and work the chutes that are formed at the tail out of every pool that lead to the head of the next pool or run.

No bright colors and move slow, in spring creeks there tends to be a lot of sediment so wherever possible stay out of the water. Wading will send a cloud of stirred silt down-current to announce your presence to older and well conditioned fish. Taking a low profile such as bent at waist or taking a knee is often a good thing when stream is small and water clear.

I have 2 rods just for these situations, 6'3" five weight Lamiglass Graphite that will land big fish and a 6'6" bamboo three weight that has landed big fish by accident. They are totally different rods but you become adapted to whichever is being used. The accuracy is the key and yes I use a light Ard Head unless the water is very shallow. Usually if water is too shallow for my rig there won't be any fish there large enough to cause great excitement.

The promised video never got made (remember?) the creek where I was all excited to do it on was the same one where that big poaching bust occurred last year...………. I'm not so sure how well we could at producing a good video on the technique Dewayne, hard to get close up of the fly landing due to how quickly things happen with the casts.

Unlike the long rods on large creeks and rivers the short dynamic Spey / roll casts happen fast with very short and quick rod strokes. If the weather were to hold in this temp range for another week I could try to shoot some video maybe. There may even be some trout still in the creek, I suppose all the salmon are dead by now in that creek.

 

[ia_trouter]

Can you walk the bank, or limited to wade?

Yes It varies and the past couple years the rules changed due to constant rain. Shoulder high grass literally to the streams edge. The bank is higher than the stream of course. In the past I could stand on the shore, use a short SH rod, OH cast with minimal issues. You will offer a few flies to the "walnut tree gods" on a good day.

So yes I need to wade more often lately. The storms have placed silt in the streams. This is Iowa after all. It's bad in places so wading means you are kicking up mud and soiling where you intend to fish two minutes from now if you head downstream. I'm not trying to be difficult, just fish what I have close enough for a day trip.

The entire purpose of this thread is I want to be more versatile. I don't have to pick one strategy for ever day. Heck, I might get lucky and the weather returns to hot and dry next year? Oddly enough I prefer that in retrospect.

 

[ia_trouter]

Right or left, you want to go downstream with streamer or wet fly not upstream. Arrive before daylight, use head lamp if not familiar with Creekside and hike upstream. Once you can see well enough to cast begin working your way back toward where you started walking upstream. Cast in any way you can in order to be accurate and work the chutes that are formed at the tail out of every pool that lead to the head of the next pool or run.

No bright colors and move slow, in spring creeks there tends to be a lot of sediment so wherever possible stay out of the water. Wading will send a cloud of stirred silt down-current to announce your presence to older and well conditioned fish. Taking a low profile such as bent at waist or taking a knee is often a good thing when stream is small and water clear.

I have 2 rods just for these situations, 6'3" five weight Lamiglass Graphite that will land big fish and a 6'6" bamboo three weight that has landed big fish by accident. They are totally different rods but you become adapted to whichever is being used. The accuracy is the key and yes I use a light Ard Head unless the water is very shallow. Usually if water is too shallow for my rig there won't be any fish there large enough to cause great excitement.

The promised video never got made (remember?) the creek where I was all excited to do it on was the same one where that big poaching bust occurred last year...………. I'm not so sure how well we could at producing a good video on the technique Dewayne, hard to get close up of the fly landing due to how quickly things happen with the casts.

Unlike the long rods on large creeks and rivers the short dynamic Spey / roll casts happen fast with very short and quick rod strokes. If the weather were to hold in this temp range for another week I could try to shoot some video maybe. There may even be some trout still in the creek, I suppose all the salmon are dead by now in that creek.

Ard,

Some vid would be helpful. The weeds will be knocked down now so some bank fishing becomes feasible early winter. The last two years have just been a special challenge here, and you know what that feels like. I need to adapt some I won't lose another season. If I am confined to 2-300 mile drives then my day trips go out the window. This season was depressing. The good Driftless water is not a daytrip, and even it was challenged this year.

I do want to setup a rod for these days. I can figure out next year if I start this winter.

 

[okaloosa]

I also am very interested in how a skagit line could be utilized from a high bank without being in the water at all when the water i is too deep and areas of mud bottom......
I face the same situation with very high banks with deep undercuts that I want to work from the outer bends so the end of my swing
puts the streamer right up against the deep bank where I let it sit for 30 seconds before a few twitches. too deep to be in the water and the bank
has very high grass/thistle that catches the backcasts and coils all day long. my answer so far is a 10 foot rod, short leaders, and a quick double haul interspersed with a lot of
curse words... I just dont see how a D loop can be accomplished if your feet are not in the water if there are trees or high grass right next to you....

this video is pretty impressive but he is still standing in the water...

YouTube

 

[ia_trouter]

okaloosa,

Your post is relevant and very much welcomed on this thread. I will pokint out that water is what we call a huge DA creek or a small river here. In my limited experience, you need to have a foot or two in the water to form a D loop. You don't have to have water behind you, but it sure seems easier if you have at least a few feet. So at least a couple steps in I go.

I hear you on the high banks. Sometimes that dictates which side of the creek I tread. The four foot tall grass is now much taller. OH casting becomes beyond frustrating.

Anyone can feel free to contradict me if you know a way to spey with your feet on land.

 

[trev]

What is the guy in the video doing at ~2.56? What cast is he using over the next couple minutes ?

The reason I asked if could you walk the bank (trespassing some places) is like Ard says the wet fly wants to be down stream, and preferably across (although a dangle and feed the line pause, feed has worked). My suggestion would be, were ever you can go overland to near the head of the pool or run, fish it and get out and overland to another up stream point, repeat.
The small-mouth streams near me often have ten yards of fish separated by two hundred yards of shallow fast run/riffle water holding mostly nothing, overland travel is much less work and quite a bit faster than wading and I can leapfrog around the holes the fish from the top with little disturbance.
There are high banks and higher banks, if you can stand on top to cast and still get down near enough the water to land the fish, you have found the ideal place to use the over head cast to reach the tailout- the only place I used it at all for many years. I usually want to cross the creek and fish into that high bank.

I do use the same roll cast upstream with dries and nymphs that I do for downstream casting. And I frequently do this from the gravel bar, because in the trout park I'm not allowed to wade. I use a 7'6" 7wt 'glass rod a lot, but can reach out more with an 8-9' rod. But I don't use spey because I often add a haul and I don't do Scagit because I use DT lines. A year ago I was unaware of both and now I'm losing interest, because both seem so bound in rote and limited to specific moves. I change my cast many times a day as I adapt. I'll follow this out of interest, maybe pickup some more "speyanese".

 

[flav]

What is the guy in the video doing at ~2.56? What cast is he using over the next couple minutes ?

He is doing a switch cast with a poke. A switch cast is basically a spey cast without a change in direction, straight in and straight out along the same line. He's simply doing it to keep his fly from snagging bottom while he talks. The poke is the second move after he lifts and drops the fly, then he does a poke to dump line on the surface while the tip sinks to anchor his cast, and then he finishes with the switch cast. He finishes that sequence with a double spey with a poke at 3:20, basically the same cast, but with a change of direction.

 

[ia_trouter]

The reason I asked if could you walk the bank (trespassing some places) is like Ard says the wet fly wants to be down stream, and preferably across (although a dangle and feed the line pause, feed has worked). My suggestion would be, were ever you can go overland to near the head of the pool or run, fish it and get out and overland to another up stream point, repeat.....................

I definitely prefer to swing down and across. I just need to fish some of the water in a less desirable manner. If I get picky and walk by the bad water, I'll be getting in the car to drive to another stream a half hour of more away. Some of the streams in day trip range are really small. The legal access stretch anyway. I like the streams that are a few miles long but they are scarce. I have trout fishing in a flat state. It could be worse.

 

[trev]

I don't mean to walk past the water, my approach is to fish each holding section (call it a hole, pool, run, or riffle) from two positions and to never wade through it. Hit the tail and cast upstream with something that works on a free tumbling drift, the upstream cast will sink the fly rapidly and I can then throw an up stream mend that will turn and slow the fly, this is with ~25' of line, fishing just above and to my side; get out go around, enter head and fish the d&a- repeat til far enough from car and go back fishing each holding area again from the head.
I don't mean to give instruction, because I don't do spey, and was just relating what I have to deal with. Streams I fish most are fairly high gradient (think hard to wade up), clear as gin and gravel bottoms (think a stack of marbles that move while you stand there), but much of what I do was learned on brooks back east.
Even on a long constant-flow run (say 1/4 mile) I would enter, fish a semi circle around myself, exit, move up or down stream and repeat. I generally keep the casts rather short, three or rod lengths of line for speed of handling and because a bass gets under structure if it has a lot of line or time. I found this lets me cover the water from two or more angles and by the time I have gone up and come back the water will be rested enough that I can do it again.
If I am right handed and I can stand river left holding the rod pointed away from the bank at an up angle and spill three or so S curves just to the left of myself then toss a C curve to right and lift a roll cast from that C (on the water) with a change of direction I can roll cast across while standing on dry land. Reverse the S and the C and cast backhand to the right to cast up or up across. maybe the crossing lines will collide if I don't get it all spaced right, but 40' with 7.5' 7wt is easy some days. I mix and match the strokes with lifts and under-hands and Belgian like ovals. Occasionally I will even overhead cast. I don't really think when I'm casting and trying to pick it apart sitting here doesn't work. Try casting sideways parallel to the bank with any cast then change directions for the delivery stroke. The trout park doesn't allow wading and til recently I didn't have a back cast at all, so I adapted what I knew.

 

[dennyk]

I can barely spell Spey let alone have a working knowledge of that style and it's terminology. Maybe this would be helpful. When I get jammed up with brush and other obstacles I like to use the bow and arrow cast for small stream fisheries. Sure, you will need to make a hole in some cases for your fly rod. I carry along a small set of gardening nippers for that purpose.

Denny

 

[flav]

Ia trouter,
You're not wrong when you say you really need to be in the water to spey cast. You can do it from shore, but you need open water next to you, not just in front of you, or at least an area free of obstructions for your D loop.
I fished those little overgrown midwest creeks when I was younger, they are challenging to cast on to say the least. Every piece of water requires a different approach, and quite often some creative casting techniques.

 

[ia_trouter]

Ia trouter,
You're not wrong when you say you really need to be in the water to spey cast. You can do it from shore, but you need open water next to you, not just in front of you, or at least an area free of obstructions for your D loop.
I fished those little overgrown midwest creeks when I was younger, they are challenging to cast on to say the least. Every piece of water requires a different approach, and quite often some creative casting techniques.

That's it exactly. The Driftless is so diverse, which is part of the attraction IMO. One stream might be through a farmers pasture and every tree long ago removed. Only 500 yards away bordered on one bank by a beautiful vegetated limestone wall 100ft+ tall, and the other side forested. Look for the RV campground full of bait fisherman when you find this spot lol. IA DNR knows how to sell trout stamps and fund their program.

Anyway, yes, I really do need a different approach from stream to stream and spot to spot sometimes. Some of this does look speyable, but I am going to be casting directly up or down stream to make it possible on over half of the runs. I guess that was actually my question.

And Trev, hope I don't sound ungrateful for advice. I have been told to just walk by the bad spots and that is frustrating because it's not me reality for a day trip. I've done well enough for years with short SH rods, but the weather has changed the game for now. I've never seen grass and brush so tall right up to the streams edge.

 

[trev]

No worries, not really meant as advice, and see I said I don't do spey. If one of you is ever in the Ozarks, maybe I can get lessons. Til then I'll use my out front roll cast.

 

[The op]

I fish some small streams shs with a cgr 2 weight and epic glass 480.
For upstream,usually with hoppers,i ll let it drift back toward me and either standard roll or perry poke it back out there.

The 4 weight line will be fine,but if you have any tips from 8 to 12 ft in the 80 to 120 grain range,,go full mini skagit,its fun.

Sa thirdcoast tips are good for this

 

[Rabid Rider]

Right or left, you want to go downstream with streamer or wet fly not upstream. Arrive before daylight, use head lamp if not familiar with Creekside and hike upstream. Once you can see well enough to cast begin working your way back toward where you started walking upstream. Cast in any way you can in order to be accurate and work the chutes that are formed at the tail out of every pool that lead to the head of the next pool or run.

No bright colors and move slow, in spring creeks there tends to be a lot of sediment so wherever possible stay out of the water. Wading will send a cloud of stirred silt down-current to announce your presence to older and well conditioned fish. Taking a low profile such as bent at waist or taking a knee is often a good thing when stream is small and water clear.

I have 2 rods just for these situations, 6'3" five weight Lamiglass Graphite that will land big fish and a 6'6" bamboo three weight that has landed big fish by accident. They are totally different rods but you become adapted to whichever is being used. The accuracy is the key and yes I use a light Ard Head unless the water is very shallow. Usually if water is too shallow for my rig there won't be any fish there large enough to cause great excitement.

The promised video never got made (remember?) the creek where I was all excited to do it on was the same one where that big poaching bust occurred last year...………. I'm not so sure how well we could at producing a good video on the technique Dewayne, hard to get close up of the fly landing due to how quickly things happen with the casts.

Unlike the long rods on large creeks and rivers the short dynamic Spey / roll casts happen fast with very short and quick rod strokes. If the weather were to hold in this temp range for another week I could try to shoot some video maybe. There may even be some trout still in the creek, I suppose all the salmon are dead by now in that creek.

Walking downstream...Humm Does that make the casting easier.. Just wondering about to try this single spey thing.. the creels around here are very bushy..