A few questions on a build, snakes or singles?

Brodfish

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Hello everyone, new to the group here and I have a few questions on a rod I plan to build.

The blank is a 9wt ticrx which has served me exceedingly well here along the northeast coast as a factory rod. I want to build one with a few alterations and as a double of the one I currently use. My big question would be on guide choice, I want to preserve or improve the rod's power and responsiveness while also reducing weight.

I'm starting with these american tackle strippers which are extremely light and reportedly very durable. Seems they would create less wind resistance as well. My question would then be on the advantages of single foot running guides vs snakes and materiel options?

This would be my first flyrod build, I'm relatively unfamiliar with materiels and techniques, any information would be graciously appreciated.

Cheers.
 

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Bambooflyguy

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Single foot guides are way more of a pain in the ass to wrap, especially for a beginner. But you can do it, just more cussing involved. The main reason is because snake guides you can securely tape the opposite foot to the blank, small tip section singles have a short foot. I’d use lite wire snakes instead of regular, especially on graphite rods. My .02
 

philly

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All the fly rods I've built have had single foot running guides. They can be a PITA to wrap especially the last one before the tip. I have a decent rod wrapping jig which makes it a bit easier to wrap them. I use latex tubing with different inside diameters to hold the guides in place. I don't use "fly rod" single foot guides. I use single foot spinning guides. This was suggested to me by Dale Clemens the owner of the shop where I brought my components years ago. I do get some strange looks, particularly in FFO stretches.
 

trev

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I use single foot spinning guides.
Clemons should know something about rod building he wrote a couple books on the subject if I recall, but what is the difference between fly guides and spinning guides? just size? higher standoff on the same sizes?
 

silver creek

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I also made a fly rod with single footed spinning guides. The reason is that the fly line is elevated off of the rod blank and there is less line slapping against the rod when you cast. So you get greater distance casting for a slight increase in the rod mass.

I have both of Dale Clemens Books - Fiberglass Rod Building and Advanced Custom Rod Building.
 

plecain

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I've also used ceramic single foot spinning guides, Fuji brand. I like the way the foot is shaped. It helps the thread hold the guide very well.
It's a different look, but they do perform well.

csDSCN0703.jpg

csDSCN0713.jpg
 
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trev

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Back when Fuji guides still a new item, I stripped and converted a couple/few fly rods to single foot ceramic guides from stripper to tiptop, in every case the casting range increased by ten or twenty feet, now I'm not sure if that was guide slickness or less line cling to rods, I doubt it was any weight decrease, because as I recall I added a couple of guides (perhaps three) on all the rods.
I don't recall there being a choice of fly guides or spin guides in single foots at that time, which is why I asked about the difference; but I also don't recall what caused me to do all that work on rods that weren't broken. All the single foot guides I've seen looked pretty much like the ones Plecain posted.
 

bonefish41

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I have used three different single foots in lieu of snakes... ss, REC Titanium and fuji ceramics...Sage recommends plus two sizes from snakes ...My anecdotal experience is I use large HD REC snakes for my Sage blanks rather than and single foots exception my 11 wt Method .. perhaps it's my poor casting technique but singles don't work for me...my latest was an 7wt Igniter Blank two strippers one 16 two foot; one 12 single foot Titanium frames and thin inserts and rest REC HD X spec snakes two #5 and six #6 ...my 9wt TCX blank has all single foot strippers 16, 12, 10, also thin inserts and then 7 #6 REC HD Xspec single foots...as a general rule with insert guides the called diameter is outside not inside so a thick insert 16 may only be an inside 12...I always look for and us the newer thinner insert rings
 

philly

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Here's a picture of one of my rods built with the single foot spinning guides. You can see the difference between them and the Fuji guides in plecain's post.
P8270781.JPG
Here's another picture, not the best, that illustrates what silver creek mentioned. The line being elevated off the rod.
P6060424 (4).JPG
They certainly make it easier to shoot line.
 

swfl daz

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I guess I don't get the whole "line elevated off the rod" for more distance thing. Who casts a fly rod with the guides up? I will say though that the snake style stripping guides on my Scott SAS are really cool looking (I don't know what you call them).
 

knotjoe

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I'm starting with these american tackle strippers which are extremely light and reportedly very durable. Seems they would create less wind resistance as well. My question would then be on the advantages of single foot running guides vs snakes and materiel options?
They're less weight in wraps (usually), don't alter the blank behavior as much, may give you more options on spacing. I've built some rods for low-diameter flylines and ESN technique with both Fuji micros and (older) American Tackle Ringlocks down to 4.5 mm and they work fine for the purpose. Allowed me to add a few more guides to train the line path optimally on lighter, more limp materials without adding much weight. Essentially, closing up the guide train a bit without the extra weight.

Much of what you see as "proper" is heavily influenced by a tradition and market in flyrods. Snakes have traditional aesthetic appeal and they still sell well on account of it. When you are building the rod, no such limiting factors exist and the options are much broader. It'll take a while, but I'll predict here that the ESN specific rods will start getting more comfortable with much smaller, closer spaced single foots in high quality materials. It just works better for the materials being fished with and the diameters of Euro-specific completion lines. The market was always pushing the limits of tolerance with the mono rig so I think they had to keep that "double foot snake" look for awhile, but eventually they'll gravitate to the pure functionality of the more appropriate build concept. Some already getting there.

Explore freely, Brodfish...you'll discover great things and create purposeful builds.(y)
 

Brodfish

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The concept of spacing your fly line further from the blank makes a lot of sense, though I was under the impression that too much distance off the blank throughout the rod can adversely affect the transfer of energy from the rod, to the fly line during a cast? I may be misinterpreting that.... I'm sure there's a correct balance depending on intended fly lines to be used as well as guide spacing on the rod its self when using single foots.

Regarding stripping guides, I know theres a great deal of conjecture on larger vs smaller strippers and when either would be most beneficial. I'm of the school that larger strippers are beneficial with thicker lines and when a lot of line will be shooting through the guides. Planning on starting with either a 25 or 20 stripper then to a 16 followed by a 12 in the photos I included. Thoughts on these guides? Was going to use them for a surf rod build but was unfamiliar enough with them to avoid using them with braid, although their touted as being braid friendly.

Thanks very much for the info here
 

knotjoe

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i have rods with single and snake guides in them,, never noticed ant differance
Not surprising, it's kind of a rodbuilder thing. We tend to build the same blank several ways "just to see" in many cases. I actually built a 2 wt 3 different ways with guide spacing/guide style ideas on the same blank over the course of a year. Any of the ways were perfectly functional, but one way was vastly superior to the other two. An experimental craft to be sure, but an interesting one when done on the exact same blank.

Razor blade and a careful hand is all it takes to answer some of life's most probing questions.😆

Yeah, we're probably a bit weird that way, but so is all this flyfishing and flytying stuff in general so it all fits together well and creates an even more absurd synergy when combined.
 

knotjoe

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Regarding stripping guides, I know theres a great deal of conjecture on larger vs smaller strippers and when either would be most beneficial. I'm of the school that larger strippers are beneficial with thicker lines and when a lot of line will be shooting through the guides. Planning on starting with either a 25 or 20 stripper then to a 16 followed by a 12 in the photos I included. Thoughts on these guides? Was going to use them for a surf rod build but was unfamiliar enough with them to avoid using them with braid, although their touted as being braid friendly.
Sure it'll work, but you can always fish the larger one's and then swap in smaller to see if it makes much difference. I have a 7wt which I oversized guides and tip on and it works well, but it's also kinda slappy. Modern lines like SA Mastery through the years is a fairly stiff line without much memory problems so I probably could drop guide size and not notice any loss in performance.

In general, I think the modern flylines allow us to use much smaller guide sizes than what has become standard. I squeeze it down pretty quick on account of this, same with braid on spinning tackle. Y'know...because we can. Honestly, I think it does more to go smaller/lighter and add a guide or two to close the spacing a bit versus going larger ring size. Spacing charts for flyrod guides are oddly standardized and seem almost an arbitrary afterthought considering the (supposedly) vastly different blank characteristics.

I'd bet those Vortex guides are plenty tough enough for braid use, these days it's more or less assumed when designing guide rings that they will encounter braided lines. I still haven't burned though any of my ancient Fuji Alconites on any tackle yet and I'm a braid guy from the early beginnings.
 

Brodfish

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I still run alconites on all my old lami surf rods. Really love those rings.

Thanks for the Info an philosophy. All are well recieved.
 

guido

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I built two rods this winter after about 40 years off rod making. Both used oversize REC running guides: one single foot, one snake. Oversize strippers one with REC Cerecoil, one with more traditional ultra light titanium. Both rods cast wonderfully. But the ease of building the snake guide rod won hands down.
 

dtaylo1066

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Singe foot guides or traditional snake guides will not make a difference if you wrap them properly. Single foot of course mean 1/2 the number of wraps and epoxying, and a little less weight, and overall more efficient in build time. You want to use the Forhan locking type wrap to make them very secure if you think you haver the skills to do that. If not, just go the traditional wrap route. Also, forget about tapering down the size of running guides. It is a waste. For a 9 foot 9 weight rod I would use two strippping guides, such as a 16 and a 12 (or 10) and then go to one size of single foot guides, such as a 4 or 5. See articles below, and also post questions on the rod building forum. It's full of experts.
The key issue on running guides is to use a size that is large enough so your line to leader knots of loops can easily fit through (not get hung up). Any extra size guide is of no benefit and just adds weight.
TiCrX production rods tended to have very large stripping and running guides on them. I have a 5 weight and the guides are huge.
TiCrX rod line weights are also understated. That 9 weight can easily toss a 10wt line, or more.

Have fun. I always liked the color of my TiCrX.
 

philly

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I guess I don't get the whole "line elevated off the rod" for more distance thing. Who casts a fly rod with the guides up? I will say though that the snake style stripping guides on my Scott SAS are really cool looking (I don't know what you call them).
Probably wasn't the best picture to post. The rod is propped up on a rock in the picture. This one will give you a better idea of "line elevated off the rod.
P5250484.JPG
 
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