Best dropper knot for Euro Nymphing?

fffl

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when using a double or triple surgeons not for your dropper , if you use the end pointing at your rod tip it will be a lot weaker than the one pointing at the reel because of the sharp angle created between the main line and the dropper.
 

tsmervis

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I also use the surgeons knot with the upside tag for my dropper. The only difference is I add a 1/2 hitch with upside tag to make it protrude at a 90 degree angle from the leader
 

patrick62

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Many people say the downhill (away from rod tip) method results in a stronger knot. Maybe it does. But I've done it both ways and have not noticed any difference in knot strength, nor have I lost more fish to one method or the other. If I lose a fish due to knot failure it's almost always the Davy knot that has failed, after some wriggling. But I'd say 90 percent of the fish I hook and lose on droppers get loose because of barbless hooks and my own slowness in setting the hook. And it does not happen very often.
 

goofnoff1

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Tie in your directly to the tippet with a Palomar not and leave your tag end long enough for your point fly. You can't change the dropper easily but being tied directly to the tippit has no effect on how it works. Knew a wet fly fisherman who would tie in four droppers this way on wide waters.
 
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patrick62

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Tie in your directly to the tippet with a Palomar not and leave your tag end long enough for your point fly. You can't change the dropper easily but being tied directly to the tippit has no effect on how it works. Knew a wet fly fisherman who would tie in our droppers this way on wide waters.
Just looked at a knot video. That's a good idea. I'll try it today. Thank you.
 

trev

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I use a three turn water knot. Simple and reliable. I always tie to the downward tag
I realize this an old thread and the poster hasn't been on lately but maybe someone else knows; how is the "three turn water knot" different than the so called "triple surgeons' knot" ?
What I learned as a "surgeons knot" 60 years ago is not what is being talked about here.
 

trev

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This way has worked for me for many years, the loop can be any loop you want and the leader knot that keeps it from sliding down can be any stopper or join knot. It lets me add or remove the dropper at any time and has the advantage of being at right angles with the leader. I like the dropper to be about 3". I do use tags sometimes but there is no reason to cut and rejoin a leader just to add a dropper.
 

the norseman

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Thank you patrick62 (post #10) and trev (post #31). You have given me more of the
Czech Nymph Fly Fishing information I've been searching for.

patrick62 - I really like your detailed info on building the C.N. Leader. The Fluorocarbon
Tippet Material to be used for the Dropper is a Stiff idea. lol

trev - your DIY swivel Loop d do Loop dropper connection is a Great idea. I like it.
It is simple, effective, and should keep my Leader/Flies un-tangled.
This L.d.d.L. dropper has saved me from buying Metal Swivels.

Thank you all. I'm so glad I found this Post/Thread. Can't wait until it gets warmer
out, to try all this.
DSC00294.JPG

I'm going to stun the general public with this some time in the next couple of weeks.

(I write an occasional fishing column, "Tangled Lines," in the Lakeville (Conn.) Journal. I wanted to call it "Tangled Lines and a Bad Liver) but they wouldn't go for it.)

tangled lines how to make a euro nymph leader



Many of you have written to say, “Hey, how do you make a leader for Euro nymphing?”
Actually it was one of you.
As requested, I will keep the writer’s name out of it, even though it was Hiram Snodgrass of West Tibia, Vt. According to the Essex County Argus-Democrat & Home Shopper, Snodgrass is embroiled in a land use dispute centered on his attempt to build what he calls a “micro-casino” in a cow pasture, but he is finding the time to keep up with angling innovations.
Euro nymphing is not a naughty Google search. It is a style of fly-fishing that uses three nymphs and little or no fly line on the water. The rods used for this method are longer than usual at 9.5 to 11 feet. These rods are rated for standard fly lines (i.e. #4) but often anglers use a level line, which has no taper at all.
The nymphs themselves are usually heavy. It is their weight that gets them down into the water column where the fish are.
It is also their weight that gets them out in the water in the first place. A Euro nymphing cast is more a controlled lob than a traditional fly cast.
There are infinite variations to this method. But that’s the general idea.
There are approximately 80 kajillion leader recipes on the internet, and you’ll see them when you Google “euro nymph,” along with the naughty photos.
You can follow these complex instructions, or you can do what I do.
Assuming a 10.5 foot rod, I start with a standard nine foot nylon trout leader tapered to 4X.
I then attach lengths of Berkley Vanish brand fluorocarbon as droppers.
You can buy fluorocarbon tippet material that is graded by the familiar tippet sizes (i.e. 5X, 6X).
It is very expensive at $15-20 per dinky little spool.
Or you can get 110 yards of Berkley Vanish for $6-8. It is intended for spinning rods, so it is classified by break strength and diameter.
So the lightest available, two pound test, has a diameter of .006 inches, which is the same as 5X tippet.
Four pound, .007 inch, equals 4X; six pound, .009 inch, is like 2X; and eight pound, .010 inch, is 1X.
I use fluorocarbon because it is much stiffer than standard nylon monofilament. That means your droppers can be thin and not get wrapped around the main body of the leader.
Supposedly fluorocarbon is also harder for the fish to see. I have asked many fish if this is true, but to date have not received a single reply.
Attach about three feet of four pound (4X) fluoro to the end of the leader with a surgeon’s knot. You want the “uphill” tag, the one closer to the rod, to be about four inches long. Clip off the shorter, “downhill” tag.
You now have a leader that is around 11 feet long and change. Two feet between flies is a reasonable place to start, so tie another three foot piece of fluoro, maybe the two pound, 5X this time, about two feet from the first dropper.
The whole shebang will wind up being 12 to 14 feet long.
You can adjust this any way you want. The only constant is you’ll want your flies to be evenly spaced, and to prevent tangling in each other, at least 18 inches apart (two feet is better).
Now you attach the flies. Often the heaviest one goes on the bottom. This is called the “point fly” by some, and the ”bottom fly” by me.
A second weighted fly goes in the middle, and an unweighted nymph on the top dropper, closest to the rod.
You will need to master the Davy Knot for tying the flies to the short droppers. Look on YouTube and you’ll find a crotchety Welshman explaining it. It seems too simple to be true, but it works.
Once you get the hang of this, you’ll be able to change out the flies at least once without starting from scratch.
As you have doubtless realized, if you rear back in a classic fly cast with all this stuff, you’ll be in Tangle City.
Simplest thing to do is gently heave the whole thing out into the current and let it swing out behind you.
Then, using the weight of both the flies and the water on the line, lift up and flip it straight upstream.
Let the flies drift back down, keeping your rod tip up and little or no fly line on the water.
Repeat.
With practice you’ll be able to guide these lobs to where you want them.
I use a standard weight forward line for this kind of fishing, but I think I am the exception. Many use a level line. I tried it and didn’t like it much. Your mileage will definitely vary.
There are as many variations on this method and rigging as there are practitioners. For instance:
-- Try putting a wet fly or a small streamer in the mix.
-- Try putting the heaviest fly in the middle.
-- Try putting a big bushy dry fly, like a Stimulator, on the top.
-- Try it with two nymphs instead of three, with smaller rods on smaller streams.
-- Try going home and watching the ball game instead.
Note: The flies don’t have to be big to be heavy. There are small nymphs, tied with jig hooks and/or tungsten bead heads, that get way way down in a hurry and are very effective.
This way has worked for me for many years, the loop can be any loop you want and the leader knot that keeps it from sliding down can be any stopper or join knot. It lets me add or remove the dropper at any time and has the advantage of being at right angles with the leader. I like the dropper to be about 3". I do use tags sometimes but there is no reason to cut and rejoin a leader just to add a dropper.
 

Ippyroy

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At the end of the EN leader I tie on a tippet ring. I usually carry 4 -5 of them at varying lengths. I also tie a bunch of leaders with a dropper loop knot tied on. I then tie around a 100 pieces of tippet with end loops. I will then do a loop to loop to connect them. I change out flies in seconds while on the river. The tippet with the end loop are put on a safety pin and attached to my shirt. I also have some hard foam wheels that I sometimes set up in advance and have my flies tied to the lines. I use this method if I want to fish ultra light and the lighting will be dim. Poor light and my bad eyes can make it difficult to tie on tiny flies. I learned this method from a guide that fished for the South African National team.
 

Acheron

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I have not been happy with loop connection for the dropper and found the loop cinched down too tight while using 5-6x and was not easily removed, especially after catching fish on it. I also found it would slide too easily sometimes and did not like any of the knot options to prevent sliding. As i change out the point fly that dropper knot gets closer until I have to cut a lot of tippet out and re-position the dopper knot. Too much work for me!! :D

i also wasted so much tippet making the lops

Recently I went with the half-blood/clinch knot and it seems to hold tight enough that it doesn't slide easily while still allowing me to slide it if needed.


I like blood knots also, but I struggled with them for years until I saw Chris Fave's method:

YouTube
Excellent for joining lines! I tend to use surgeon's joins but that is a great tip!

Surgeons join with hemostats
 

Northcountryman

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At the end of the EN leader I tie on a tippet ring. I usually carry 4 -5 of them at varying lengths. I also tie a bunch of leaders with a dropper loop knot tied on. I then tie around a 100 pieces of tippet with end loops. I will then do a loop to loop to connect them. I change out flies in seconds while on the river. The tippet with the end loop are put on a safety pin and attached to my shirt. I also have some hard foam wheels that I sometimes set up in advance and have my flies tied to the lines. I use this method if I want to fish ultra light and the lighting will be dim. Poor light and my bad eyes can make it difficult to tie on tiny flies. I learned this method from a guide that fished for the South African National team.
Nice system ! Do you label the premade leaders according to length so that you can identify them when stored ? Also , how do you store and carry your leaders while on- stream? Thanks
 

moucheur2003

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Personally I've had best results just dropping directly off the eye of the hook.
I've run up to 3 offerings this way; just tie 18" (or whatever) of fluoro to the eye of the upper offering and add your next offering at the end of that.
I don't get tangles like this, whereas I did with "tag line approaches" (especially with thin line) and it's really easy/fast to rig.
Also works fine for dry/dropper rigs.
If you aren't likely to need to change the dropper fly while leaving the point fly in place, a Palomar knot is a really easy way to do this. Tie the dropper on with a Palomar and leave a long tag, then tie the point fly to the end of the tag. The advantage is that it avoids having to trim and tie multiple pieces of tippet and it tangles less than a separate dropper. The disadvantage is that the dropper fly has less freedom of movement (but more than if you tie on the point fly directly to the bend of the dropper's hook), and that you can't change the dropper fly without re-tying the point too.

palomar knot.jpg
 
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Northcountryman

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Nice idea but I’m confused : how do you tie on the dropper to the line using a Palomar ? You’re not passing the doubles up line thru a hook eye such as the example in the illustration, so I’m trying to understand how it is secured to the leader . Thanks 😊
 

blueeyedson

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Honestly, the best and easiest one for a dropper tag is the Double Surgeon's. My dropper fly doesn't get that tangled all that often if I keep the tag on the short side and if I use the tag end that is pointing towards the rod and I clip off the other side.
Interesting observation. I confess I've not paid attention to which tag end I clip/use.
 

Acheron

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I've tried a few knots and usually use a surgeons loop or perfection loop then make a loop connection to the tippet. I like that when a fish is on the dropper it slides down to the point fly and doesn't tangle.
 
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