Best setup to learn roll casting

andrewvt

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I am trying to work on my roll casting, and have read through past threads on the forum. I am still a bit confused. What is the best setup and location to learn roll casting (Fly line taper, line weight, rod action, casting on grass or water, etc)? Thanks.
 

silver creek

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Do it on water. It is the surface tension of the fly line on the water that helps to load the rod.

A continuous taper line (no belly) like a Wullf triangle taper "should" roll casts the best. I would guess that a Wulff TT fly line would be the best roll casting line for that reason. As you can tell from the fly line profiles below, with a TT line, a heavier section of line is always turning over a lighter section of line until you get to the running line.

http://www.tridentflyfishing.com/blog/royal-wulff-fly-line-reviews-and-recommendations



Bob Wyatt thinks the more modern long belly line roll cast better:

http://www.sexyloops.com/tackle/triangle.shtml

After learning the standard roll cast, practice the dynamic roll cast.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFDPIn0L0Uw[/ame]
 
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Rip Tide

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I'm gonna agree with silver that you should do this on the water but IMO you need to use whatever setup that you normally fish with.
Roll casts aren't a mystery and if anything, they're easier than a full cast.

Just like in any other cast, slack is your enemy so don't attempt to make your pick-up until the end of your line is moving.
Bring the rod up to a point behind your ear, pause,and then make your regular forward motion, "speed-up to a full stop", cast
It's really that simple.
The only difference is that your not stuck in that tree behind you.
 

andrewvt

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That was the video I saw that made me wonder if grass or water is better. The guy throws effortless rolls cast that don't look anything like mine (much more power in his loop). Mine seem to roll out on the water, not the air. I don't have a triangle type taper, so should I be using a Rio Gold fly line or double taper line (both I have in the same weight)?

Thanks for the help.
 

silver creek

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That was the video I saw that made me wonder if grass or water is better. The guy throws effortless rolls cast that don't look anything like mine (much more power in his loop). Mine seem to roll out on the water, not the air. I don't have a triangle type taper, so should I be using a Rio Gold fly line or double taper line (both I have in the same weight)?

Thanks for the help.
You have to realize that the purpose of the standard roll cast is to cast when there is NO ROOM behind you. That is the cast you need to learn first. I posted that you learn the dynamic roll cast AFTER you have MASTERED the basic roll cast.

The video I posted is the DYNAMIC roll cast. Notice that he partially aerializes the D loop and the D loop goes well BEHIND him. At the beginning of the DVD at 12 second mark, the line almost hits the camera that is well behind the caster. He COULD NOT use that cast if there were a wall of bushes or trees behind him.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFDPIn0L0Uw[/ame]

The distance you can cast is limited by the size of the D loop, which is the loop of line from the water to the rod tip that is behind the caster. It is the MASS and direction of the D loop that loads the rod for the cast, especially if the D loop is aerialized and traveling in the opposite direction of the forward roll cast. So he loading the rod both against the large D loop and the rearward momentum of the D loop.

So first learn the standard roll cast and then the dynamic (aerailized D loop) roll cast.

I would start with the DT fly line.

A longer fly rod has 2 advantages. The first is that the D loop can be larger since the rod is longer, and the second is that the longer rod is a longer lever so the caster can move the rod tip faster and have a longer rod tip path.
 

bill_s

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I was going to comment that it was easy to learn a roll cast, that I accomplished it quickly....but then I watched the video posted by Silver. My roll cast and that one, are not in the same league! :)

What a beautiful roll cast that is. Thanks for posting the link, it is great motivational tool. Now...time to go practice!

Cheers
 

silver creek

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If you look closely at the rod in Carl McNeil's video, it seems to bend from the butt to the tip. I suspect it is a slow action or medium action fly rod. His rod stroke is SMOOTH and RELAXED, allowing the rod to absorb the energy of his casting stroke.

Using a slow action fly rod also allow him to use a slower rod stroke that is easier for an observer to analyze ad understand.

This goes along with the Orvis guide to Rod actions:

Understanding Rod Action and Choosing the Right Rod for You - Orvis News

"Slow-action rods are definitely the smallest part of the market. For repetitive roll-casting or throwing small flies short distances on long leader, you can’t beat a slow-action rod, but Bartschi also notes that his favorite sinking-line rod is a slow rod with a stiff tip, which performs roll-cast pickups well and throws a slow open loop. Slow rods require smooth acceleration and greater tip control during the casting stroke, so some casters struggle with tailing loops."
 

Bigfly

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Three things I have noticed over the years....

The first is the main difference between an overhead cast, and the roll.
A lot of people have a habit from just casting overhead...
They lift quickly, like they are still casting a dry. The goal is to aeralize the line into a backcast.
Instead, when rolling.....Lift the rod very slowly to your stop. The stop is where the line sags below the rod. Somewhere around 35-45 degrees.
You can pause at that point as long as you want. Let that soak in.....
"Slow up...fast down" is the mantra.
It's best learned casting downstream, and letting the pull of the water on the line maintain tension.
Now, do a fast downward chop. Bingo.....

The second problem is we tend to aim at the water....The habit of throwing a "tight loop" for a dry.
Raise your aim point, and go for a little bigger, open loop...I may aim 3-6 feet above my normal aim point.
The farther away, or heavier the rig, the higher I aim.

The third, is I tell people to think of the rod path and the line as railroad tracks headed for the horizon. They never cross.........

Some folks have an arc to their rod path that takes the rod across the line path....bad....tangles around the rod are the outcome.

The one other thing that's related.....
I ask fishers...which side of a flag pole is the flag on?....the downwind side is the answer.
If you are a right handed caster, and the wind is blowing from your left to right, you won't have an issue. because the flag (line) is downwind of the rod.
But, if the wind is blowing right to left, the line will tangle around the rod.
This is where you go to the next level....a "crossbody" cast.
Same as the regular roll cast but with line on the downwind, or opposite side now.
Just be aware which way the wind is blowing..always have the line on the downwind side of the rod when roll casting.

A weight forward line will work fine but only out to a point.
Then I prefer a bellied line to help "turnover" at distance...a Double taper is great as well...
This is the easiest cast you can learn, and I wish folks would learn it before the overhand cast.
Anyone can speed up their cast, but slowing down is hard for many.

I have found the rollcast is a higher percentage cast....
No false casting to scare fish.
No leaving flies in the bushes behind you.
And I believe it's a more accurate cast for beginners, and advanced alike.
I rarely cast overhand anymore.
I rollcast with small dries, large dries too.....but it is invaluable for Indy fishing.....Until you have your cast dialed, just say no to overhand with an Indy setup.
Have fun finding your cast...it will come with time.

Jim
 
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andrewvt

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Thank you all for the insight. If it wasnt supposed to snow here this weekend I would be out on the water practicing (it was 80 today). I still may get out.

I will keep the slow up, fast down, aim high info in my brain.
 

jofer

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If you look closely at the rod in Carl McNeil's video, it seems to bend from the butt to the tip. I suspect it is a slow action or medium action fly rod. His rod stroke is SMOOTH and RELAXED, allowing the rod to absorb the energy of his casting stroke.
It's a Sage Vantage #6 (painted in white) and a SA mastery expert distance line.



Jofer
 

fishing hobo

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That was the video I saw that made me wonder if grass or water is better. The guy throws effortless rolls cast that don't look anything like mine (much more power in his loop). Mine seem to roll out on the water, not the air. I don't have a triangle type taper, so should I be using a Rio Gold fly line or double taper line (both I have in the same weight)?

Thanks for the help.
Both of the videos are jump rolls/switch cast/fwdSpey, whatever you want to call it but NOT a static roll cast which I assume you are on about. Hitting 50ft with a static roll cast is tough...
 

andrewvt

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Honestly, I want to be able to do both (static and dynamic) better. They both have an application in the fishing I do. I'll keep working at it, keeping all these tips in mind. The videos do make it look easy though.
 

ottosmagic13

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The Orvis instruction videos and Ask an Instructor series have some good videos on roll casts.

This one does a great job of defining the static vs dynamic aspect talked about upthread.
[ame]https://youtu.be/nnRzkW0F9ek[/ame]


Some "roll-casts" can get pretty darn spayish, especially when you start changing direction mid-cast.
 

fishing hobo

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Found the magic combination today :D

Sage ZXL 9ft #6 and Barrio GT90 WF6F :D:D:D:D:D Can't wipe the grin off my face :D.
 

just4grins

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Silver Creek almost hit the nail on the head. Royal Wulff Tri-Angle Taper makes the best roll casting line on the market...it's the Ambush line designed explicitly for the roll cast, but equally good as a shooting line. Contact Doug Cummings at Royal Wulff Products.
 

airborne 82nd

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Just from personal experience ...I honestly think there's no specific combo for perfect roll cast !!! Get in the river and practice , use what you have a roll cast
Practice is essentially the best way to learn proper casts

Airborne ( David)
 

Hirdy

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I had all sorts of problems making a roll cast work until I got one little tip that brought it all together. Since I haven't seen the tip mentioned here yet, I'll put it forward.

The best stop is not really just a stop but a slight pull-back on the tip just after the loop forms. It's a little bounce of the rod, a "Wingardium Leviosa" of the magic wand. (The first attempts at the spell in this video at 34 seconds show what I mean ... :D For years, my roll casts induced Ron's response. :) )


https://youtu.be/U6zKb4Zte4M?t=34s


You can see Carl do it in the opening cast of that earlier video. It's just a little lift of the rod but it makes a huge difference to the end result. It's very easy to miss unless you know what to look for and I didn't know to look for it while I was learning.

Once you've got the cast working well, you can aim to reduce that lift until it's imperceptible, but while you're learning the roll cast, it's well worth adopting.

Cheers,
Graeme
 

markfrid

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Just from personal experience ...I honestly think there's no specific combo for perfect roll cast !!! Get in the river and practice , use what you have a roll cast
Practice is essentially the best way to learn proper casts

Airborne ( David)
I agree. I roll cast a lot. More than overhand, by far because most of my streams have limited backcast room. I'm not an expert, but I have roll cast with a bunch of different rods and lines. Every rod casts differently. The ones with the faster action and quick tips seem to like a quicker snap from the top. The medium action rods like a longer, smoother roll. Glass and bamboo - longer and smoother still. Just like the overhand cast. Some rods roll like magic with the lines they are rated for. Others like to use 1 or even 2 lines heavier to get the best roll casts. WF line is no problem at all - except, you aren't going to get any more distance than the length of the belly. Once you start trying to roll cast the running line, you're begging for a frustrating time! That thin running line acts like a hinge and doesn't transmit all the energy of your cast to the loop that's trying to roll out. You need a DT or triangle type taper for longer roll casts - they transmit all the energy into the loop. If you don't need roll casts longer than 30-35', your WF will do great for you.

Have fun!

Mark
 
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