broken tips

siper

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Hi Guys,
I had been experimenting with a Skagit head on a glass 3 wt. 1st cast snapped.
Is it likely that it can occur just be overloaded weight, or it just found a faulty tip.

many thanks
 

mtboiler

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My guess is one of two things...
Rod was inpacted before by a fly with a bead head that dented or gave it a micro crack and the extra weight just finally broke it...
or you overweighted it with the skagit head.
What weight was the skagit head? What 3wt rod?
 

siper

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many thanks guys.
only a cheapie maxcatch 7’ 3wt. I got 2 one casts #DT4 nicely 40’. I’m only a novice.
The second experimenter running line and 11’ 280grain Skagit. broke 2” above last ferrule.
cheers
Ron
 

el jefe

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I am a little bit surprised that a fiberglass rod broke. Usually, you have to close those in a car door--repeatedly--to break them.
 

mtboiler

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probably from contact or, because it was a lower end rod, defect in manufacturing. Well overweighted though by the 280 grain head.
 

trev

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My thoughts are if a rod is capable of handling, say a 3# fish, there is no fly line that weighs 3# so overloading to the point of rod breakage with a fly line makes no sense.

In general when a graphite rod breaks the likelihood of prior damage is pretty high, but how the damage was introduced or when is pure guesswork, the part could have been dropped or banged during assembly, storage, shipping, unpacking, storage, previous use etc.; so we could guess it had previous damage causing the rod to be defective.

Like el jefe says it is unusual for 'glass rods break with less than severe trauma and impact from a passing fly doesn't often cause them the same trauma that it does carbon/graphite rods. Car doors, ceiling fans, screen doors, feet, full weight of a falling adult, strain of trying to lift a log or pull down a tree are more typical ways to break a 'glass rod. I should know, I've broken more than my share (12?-16?)
With 'glass to 'glass ferules if it breaks at a ferrule it is always failure to wax and/or frequently check the connection for tightness, this may take several attempts before the female splits.
When it snaps just below the tiptop, it is either from severe strain of lifting or pulling with the tip or most often from over heating the glass when replacing the tiptop.

The 280gr line would be roughly the same as 85' of #3 so should not have broken the rod.

Since your rod broke well above the ferrule, my guess is this rod had some unknown manufacturing defect, perhaps a bubble or an inclusion in the resin or it was sanded too thin at that point. But it is only a guess based on a little over forty years of breaking fly rods.
That should be repairable with a stent made of another broken rod, or you can save the parts to use as repairs in the future.
 
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ryc72

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Can’t tell you why the rod broke but I’m pretty sure that an 11ft 280 grain skagit head is awfully heavy for a single hand 7ft 3wt rod. For context, opst recommends for a short 3wt a 150 grain head.
 

mtboiler

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My thoughts are if a rod is capable of handling, say a 3# fish, there is no fly line that weighs 3# so overloading to the point of rod breakage with a fly line makes no sense.
You can land any size fish on any size rod if you know what you are doing. That has nothing to do with line weight. A typical 3wt fly line, single hand not spey is around 100g. This is an SA Infinity chart. 280g is not even on this chart.
LINE WEIGHTHEAD LENGTHTOTAL LENGTHGRAIN WEIGHT*
WF-3-F47.0’/14,3m90’/27,4m110gr/7,2gr
WF-4-F48.0’/14,6m90’/27,4m130gr/8,5gr
WF-5-F49.0’/14,9m90’/27,4m150gr/9,8gr
WF-6-F50.0’/15,2m90’/27,4m175gr/11,2gr
WF-7-F51.0’/15,5m90’/27,4m200gr/12,8gr
WF-8-F52.0’/15,8m90’/27,4m225gr/14,5gr
WF-9-F53.0’/16,2m90’/27,4m260gr/16,9gr

No one is their right mind would think a 3wt fly rod is designed to overhand cast a 3# fish or fly line! Even adding a one ounce weight to the leader would overtask that rod!
 

trev

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You can land any size fish on any size rod if you know what you are doing.
Exactly, and the rod can withstand that force which is many times greater than any casting load. Back when I was young the advertising showed the rod tips pulled all the way to the grip with no breaking, surely 60 years later the rods are just as good?

That chart lists only what 30' is supposed to weigh. Pick anyone of those lines and weigh the whole line. or get an approximate value by multiplying by 3 (3x30'=90') Actually you should pick a DT line to weigh because the rods are not rated specifically for WF lines (1/2 lines?) nor are they rated for less than 30 feet casts.
 

trev

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Even adding a one ounce weight to the leader would overtask that rod!
yes, one ounce is 437.5 grains without doing the math perhaps a full 7wt.

I imagine that rod is incapable of casting a full three weight line, most cheaper rods are designed to cast at fishing distance, I still don't think one should break with the weight of a full line.
 
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siper

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Many thanks guys I think I got caught out looking at Spey tables when I was only really playing with a skagit style head on the SH 3wt..

Again thanks all

Ron
 

mtboiler

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Exactly, and the rod can withstand that force which is many times greater than any casting load. Back when I was young the advertising showed the rod tips pulled all the way to the grip with no breaking, surely 60 years later the rods are just as good?

That chart lists only what 30' is supposed to weigh. Pick anyone of those lines and weigh the whole line. or get an approximate value by multiplying by 3 (3x30'=90') Actually you should pick a DT line to weigh because the rods are not rated specifically for WF lines (1/2 lines?) nor are they rated for less than 30 feet casts.
After spending 25 plus years fly fishing and 10 years working in a fishing store, I have never seen a fly rod that you could bend the tip to the handle. But, we use to sell a spinning rod you could do that too....well kind of. But it would usually have some cracking sounds involved and 90% of them came back 'defective'.
The weight of the line and the amount of weight the rod can dead lift are completely different. Fly rods are not designed to lift heavy weight out of the water. Bass fisherman use Bait cast rods that are design to dead lift big fish out of the water...boat flop is what they call it. Those rods are substantially stiffer rods and have very little flex at all except for the tip. Spinning rods are a combination of power and flex. Pretty sure your 4 piece fly rod would be a 5 piece fly rod if you tried to boat fly a 3 pound fish.
 
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mtboiler

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yes, one ounce is 437.5 grains without doing the math perhaps a full 7wt.

I imagine that rod is incapable of casting a full three weight line, most cheaper rods are designed to cast at fishing distance, I still don't think one should break with the weight of a full line.
I am not a science guy and don't really get the relationships, but I do work in a fishing store and sell fly rods and conventional gear....so here goes the unscientific explaination...because I see people coming in all the time with broken stuff because of 'mis-use'.
I gram is about 15grains. So, a 7wt rod is no where near 400 grains. The amplitude chart shows both, amplitudes are half size heavier liness. It is 200 grains and 12 grams.
A wf fly line, while the head is 200 grains, first 30ft, is not 600 grains because of the taper. I don't know the whole weight but it is probably close to 450 or 500 grains. A double taper does probably double but the weight of the head is going to be relatively the same as a wf line. There are probably 1 in 100 anglers that can legitimately carry the entire fly line on a 7ft 3wt shadow casting!! So to assume the whole fly line is going to be in the air is probably never going to happen unless you have a 30 mile per hour wind and you just hold the rod up in the air. Most 7ft 3wt rods are designed to cast 20 to 40 ft.
Here is the Amplitude Double Taper weights....
LINE WEIGHTBELLY LENGTHTOTAL LENGTHGRAIN WEIGHT*
DT-1-F78.0’/23,8m85’/25,9m60gr/3,9gr
DT-2-F76.5’/23,3m85’/25,9m80gr/5,2gr
DT-3-F75.0’/22,9m85’/25,9m100gr/6,5gr
DT-4-F73.5’/22,4m85’/25,9m120gr/7,8gr
DT-5-F72.0’/21,9m85’/25,9m140gr/9,1gr
DT-6-F70.5’/21,5m85’/25,9m160gr/10,4gr

A 7ft 3 wt is not designed to cast long distances...length of rod helps with distance. In general, Shorter rods are designed to cast short accurate casts. Longer rods are designed for distance and power. So, a 400 grain line on a rod designed for a 100 grain line would either flop or snap the rod fairly easily.
 
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flav

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That 290 grain skagit would cast nicely on an 8 weight single hander, it would seriously overload a 3 weight. If you want to do the single hand Skagit thing on a 3 weight, head in the 150 grain range would be more appropriate.
I don't know if overloading the rod led to it breaking, but I'm sure it didn't help. Personally I think the rod had a manufacturing defect and was going to break at some point anyway. Those cheap overseas rods are notorious for poor quality control, one will be awesome and the next will snap like a toothpick.
 
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