Drop shot rig using trout beads?

bigjim5589

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Can be fished with or without a strike indicator.

Thanks Henry! That's the same idea as conventional anglers are using, except of course they're using lures or baits. So, if I understand this controversy correctly, the issue is that pegged beads are being used instead of flies? With the hook well behind the bead so that it in effect causes the fish to be snagged rather than taking the hook into it's mouth?
 

silver creek

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Thanks Henry! That's the same idea as conventional anglers are using, except of course they're using lures or baits. So, if I understand this controversy correctly, the issue is that pegged beads are being used instead of flies? With the hook well behind the bead so that it in effect causes the fish to be snagged rather than taking the hook into it's mouth?
Correct.
 

Frank Whiton

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I am a bit dated but when I lived in Alaska during the 70"s and 80's that set up would be illegal in Alaska. The Alaska law, as I recall, didn't allow any weight below the fly/flies.

Bead fishing was just starting but I never tried it. I caught a bunch of fish in Alaska but never used an indicator or bead. Most of my fish were caught with streamers or large wet flies. I learned about indicators at the San Juan in New Mexico. I fished for years with a large dry fly as an indicator with a single dropper fly off the dry.

Frank
 

okaloosa

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I see some guys tie the chenille for a san juan worm directly to the tippet and then the hook 2 inches below the chenille, presumably to give the "fly" more action...I would imagine with any decent sized fish that would still be a legit take, and not a snag. is that correct?
 

silver creek

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I see some guys tie the chenille for a san juan worm directly to the tippet and then the hook 2 inches below the chenille, presumably to give the "fly" more action...I would imagine with any decent sized fish that would still be a legit take, and not a snag. is that correct?
If the hook is in the mouth, it is a legal take. Outside the mouth, it is a snag.

I think wardens have some leeway in determining whether the "intent" was to snag or not. For example, if a fish was "foul hooked" on a fin by a regularly tied fly, this would be an accidental snag. I'm sure we all have had fish incidentally foul hooked by our flies when nymphing.

However, if a bare hook and what represents the "fly" are separated on the leader, then I suspect the warden would determine that the intent was to hook the fish outside the mouth.

Gary Borger wrote about foul hooking a trout on the Madison River here:


Here's where Gary hooked the fish, in the slick behind the submerged boulder. Notice that the rod tip is bent and the line is tight. I happened to take the photo just as he hooked the fish in his story.



Here is Gary chasing after the fish.

 
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LandoLando

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I enjoyed that story. I had a similar experience on the green river in Wyoming. I thought I had a monster and ran a few hundred yards down stream after him. I realized it was foul hooked when I brought it to the surface before netting him and was disappointed to see how small he was. Probably only 16” but foul hooked right behind the adipose fin. Glad I had a barbless hook because it was pretty deep.
 

GloveMan

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On most waters I believe that a fly is something tied to the hook from natural or synthetic fibers to imitate a food source that the fish will actively bite from hunger, aggression or curiosity. A plastic bead pegged on the line above a bare hook I don't believe is a fly, but even more importantly than that, I have watched "fly fisherman" using the chuck and duck drop shot method or the bobber float method with these beads and if you watch they "set the hook" at the end of very drift. That technique is in essence attempting to sweep the hook across a fishes face and impale the fish "somewhere." If that is how you choose to hide what is in essence a snagging technique that is a personal choice. I don't consider it fly fishing and snagging trout by any method should be illegal. That includes long line sweeping across the current with multiple split shot and long fine leaders that cross over a fish gaping on a red so that the hook imbeds itself in the opposite side of the fishes face outside the mouth. Go to a salmon river or steelhead stream and look at all the flies stuck on the outside of the fish and then ask yourself is this worth it?
 

planettrout

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I'm patiently waiting for the salmon to move in on my local river so the trout/steelhead will start eating eggs like crazy. Recently I have been using a drop shot (bottom bouncing) rig with nymphs and have done well (indicator and tight lining). Which brings me to my question for everyone. Has anyone ever uses pegged beads on a drop shot rig? If so, do you have any recommendations for setup? Thanks

A dropshot rig is illegal in CA:

" It is unlawful to use any weight directly attached below a hook."



PT/TB
 

planettrout

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Since this rig has no weight attached "directly" below each fly, is this legal in CA? Seems legal to me.
View attachment 41910

The above is not legal in CA

Utah Rig, Bounce Rig, Dropshot Rig - all use weight below the fly:



Utah rig developed by Larry Tullis....

See this thread:



PT/TB
 

silver creek

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I think there is a way around the California regulation that prohibits "drop shot" rigs.

International fly fishing competition also prohibits a weight below a fly. So Vladi Trzebunia "invented Polish nymphing" which was then modified by the Czechs and then the French and then the Italians until these various forms of "contact" nymphing became known as Euronymphing.

Vladi Trzebunia introduced his form of nymphing during the 1989 World Fly Fishing Championship. He won by the greatest point margin ever and his personally score in 1989 was higher than the total score of the next three national teams.

You read that correctly - his personal score was greater than the 2nd place, 3rd place, and 4th place TEAM scored ADDED TOGETHER!

Poland at the time was a poor country and Vladi did not even have a proper fly line when he taught himself to fish. So he developed a system that did not really need fly line because no fly line extended out of the guides. He did not have tapered leaders so he used a straight section of mono as his leader. He did not even have access to proper fly tying equipment so he developed flies that used what he had - hooks, lead wire, embroidery floss, and even condoms to create the flies he needed. He taught himself to weave flies using various colors of floss over lead wire shaped and wound on hooks.

Is there any sport where an unknown from second rate European country beats not only the French Team but the next two teams by himself.

He became a coach of the US team and is responsible for Jim Currier being the first American to ever medal in the international contest. This lead to George Daniels publishing Dynamic Nymphing bringing these techniques and flies into the mainstream in the USA.



If you use a bottom "fly" that is very heavily weighted and is really designed NOT to actually catch fish, but to act as the "drop shot," then you are legal in California because the weight is actually a fly.

Since Vladi has no traditional fly tying materials, he made his lower fly out of condums. Here is his fly.




The fly I use is a woven stonefly nymph over a heavy lead wrapped hook. The fly is called a drone stone.





The pattern is in the Autumn 2010 Fly Tyer magazine. However, unless you know how to weave, I suggest you first learn to weave simpler flies.

Take a look at this video and practice using embroidery floss. It is cheap and comes in all the colors you would ever want.

Another tip is to use Uni Stretch Thread (this is a stretchable tying thread needed to cover the lead wire). This provides a smoother base and will make the following weaving step much easier.


 

okaloosa

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I think there is a way around the California regulation that prohibits "drop shot" rigs.

International fly fishing competition also prohibits a weight below a fly. So Vladi Trzebunia "invented Polish nymphing" which was then modified by the Czechs and then the French and then the Italians until these various forms of "contact" nymphing became known as Euronymphing.

Vladi Trzebunia introduced his form of nymphing during the 1989 World Fly Fishing Championship. He won by the greatest point margin ever and his personally score in 1989 was higher than the total score of the next three national teams.

You read that correctly - his personal score was greater than the 2nd place, 3rd place, and 4th place TEAM scored ADDED TOGETHER!

Poland at the time was a poor country and Vladi did not even have a proper fly line when he taught himself to fish. So he developed a system that did not really need fly line because no fly line extended out of the guides. He did not have tapered leaders so he used a straight section of mono as his leader. He did not even have access to proper fly tying equipment so he developed flies that used what he had - hooks, lead wire, embroidery floss, and even condoms to create the flies he needed. He taught himself to weave flies using various colors of floss over lead wire shaped and wound on hooks.

Is there any sport where an unknown from second rate European country beats not only the French Team but the next two teams by himself.

He became a coach of the US team and is responsible for Jim Currier being the first American to ever medal in the international contest. This lead to George Daniels publishing Dynamic Nymphing bringing these techniques and flies into the mainstream in the USA.



If you use a bottom "fly" that is very heavily weighted and is really designed NOT to actually catch fish, but to act as the "drop shot," then you are legal in California because the weight is actually a fly.

Since Vladi has no traditional fly tying materials, he made his lower fly out of condums. Here is his fly.




The fly I use is a woven stonefly nymph over a heavy lead wrapped hook. The fly is called a drone stone.





The pattern is in the Autumn 2010 Fly Tyer magazine. However, unless you know how to weave, I suggest you first learn to weave simpler flies.

Take a look at this video and practice using embroidery floss. It is cheap and comes in all the colors you would ever want.

Another tip is to use Uni Stretch Thread (this is a stretchable tying thread needed to cover the lead wire). This provides a smoother base and will make the following weaving step much easier.


That Vladi fly looks very much like a Pigsticker fly that I have seen used here in Colorado in sizes as big as #6.
But, interestingly I have seen anglers actually catching large trout with this fly in the mouth. The fly is big, gaudy, and has no intrinsic life like motion from its materials. To say the least I was surprised to see it work. The angler also had it tied up in many different colors which leads me to believe it wasnt simply meant as a dropshot. Dont let the photo below fool you: these were not blood midges but big flies on #6 hooks! how they fool high pressured Colorado trout is beyond me. I have not tried them.
1634137607134.png
 

planettrout

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This pattern, developed by Greg Vinci, will take everything into the zone very quickly as well as catch Trout. He also developed "The Depth Charge Bird's Nest" another alternative to using shot as a way to get flies to the bottom pronto...



X-RAY CADDIS PUPA #12 - #14...


PT/TB
 

sasquatch7

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If you're going to use a friggin hook on the bottom why wouldn't you want it to catch fish ? It seems to me that these no hooking fish fly's would cause to snag the bottom ?
 

flav

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Sorry I opened this can of worms.
However, the way I see it, this, is what the CA law is meant to prohibit. These are what snaggers, or "lifters", use to foul hook fish.
A perfect example of "weight directly attached below a hook".
CRTSnagHookWeightBehindALL.jpg

Flies on droppers don't have any weight attached directly below them, so the way I read the regs a dropshot rig with flies on droppers is legal. That's just my interpretation of the regs, however, others seem to interpret things differently.

There will always be creative and ingenious folks coming up with new ( sometimes better) ways to do things. I'm not a fan of the whole EN thing, but I do think bounce rigs have merit. I can fish a dropshot rig all day, not lose any flies, and maybe lose a couple small pieces of shot or Tungsten putty....or I can fish a traditional nymph rig, lose multiple nymph rigs, leave the river bottom festooned with tippet, flies, and shot, and spend time re-rigging several times each day.

Maybe this is why I fish dries most of the time.
 

knotjoe

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If you use a bottom "fly" that is very heavily weighted and is really designed NOT to actually catch fish, but to act as the "drop shot," then you are legal in California because the weight is actually a fly.
Thanks! Seems we were all kinda wondering about the same "what ifs" as workarounds.

Now, a question or two. If one accidentally droops a blob of epoxy over the hook gap when tying and it (inadvertently, of course) prevents the hook from not only catching fish, but also snagging on the bottom, are we still good? Regardless of legality, have we reinvented or redefined the Blob Fly concept with such sneakiness or do we need a new name for it altogether?😏

Could actually do this with a brutally stiff weedguard as well if one truly desires to dropshot within regs. A morbidly obese nymph with a paunchy keel belly would also suffice, all ya gotta do is amateurishly crowd the gap and you're good. We flytyers are baaaaaad, but in a very good way.
 

flexxx

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The above is not legal in CA

Utah Rig, Bounce Rig, Dropshot Rig - all use weight below the fly:



Utah rig developed by Larry Tullis....

See this thread:



PT/TB
I'm a bit confused on why this would be illegal and how this would be used to snag fish?

From what I have read is the "Provo River Bounce Rig" was created in Utah in the 1930's

I do use this rig for conventional fishing, usually a spinning rod for smallmouth bass, I have never once snagged a fish
using this method.
 
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fatbillybob

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Is a bead really any worse than someone fishing a yarn egg on a egg hook?

Is a bead with hook dangling a couple inches a way much different than an intruder fly with a flailing hook an inch from the waddington shank?

I’m not stirring trouble I just don’t see a lot of difference. Yup I’m that uneducated.
 

planettrout

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I'm a bit confused on why this would be illegal and how this would be used to snag fish?

From what I have read is the "Provo River Bounce Rig" was created in Utah in the 1930's

I do use this rig for conventional fishing, usually a spinning rod for smallmouth bass, I have never once snagged a fish
using this method.
One more time:

(4) It is unlawful to use any weight directly attached below a hook. :



...and:



If you get caught doing it here in CA, I'm certain a judge will listen to your opinion before slamming you with a hefty fine....it's around $500.00 now for any wisp of a barb on "barbless" waters and the wardens use cotton balls to test the hook....


PT/TB
 
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