Factory Loops; why cut them off?

wjc

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I haven't had a factory loop fail since their early introducion, after one fell apart while casting. It would either have been a Rio or a Sci Anglers line.

But I haven't used one now since that event. My next failure occurred on a premade, store bought hollow mono loop which did not have the second catch.

Now the factory loops are much stronger and do not fail from a strength standpoint from what I've heard, but I've been cutting them out since before that happened.

Where the new strong ones do fail, in my opinion, is that they are way, way too small and way way too stiff. They are hard to attach and much harder to undo because you can't even get your pinkie finger inside of the loops.

They are also more than twice the diameter of the running line even when squashed together, and the small diameter of the loop wants to spread apart and form a circle.

So the only way to securely attach backing to prevent the handshake connection from distorting into that other connection is to do two pass throughs with a half twist between.

This is a major production to achieve through a factory loop about 3 times the diameter of a gnat's a$$hole and is a triple production to undo.

By the time you are done, the backing line filaments are frayed all to hell, you have chewed your cigar into mush and have hexed everyone from xyz line company to hades.

So I just cut mine off and make my own blind spliced loops big enough to fit a soccer ball through (maybe not quite) and attach it to the running line and do the same with the backing.

Three fingers of each hand will easily fit through either loop and one yank loosens the handshake without disturbing one filament.

And it's not that lines are changed that often because there are rods rigged and ready to go in the rod compartment.

But it's nice that they can be, if necessary, and that the connections slip through the guides very easily and no one's name is taken in vain when lines do need to be changed. That usually happens at home on the deck but it's no harder at night in a boat.

And if one fails, it is either my fault or horrible bad luck.

But since I am the judge determining which was the cause, you can likely guess the usual verdict.
 

el jefe

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I have purchased several of these from Ard, and give some away to my friends. These are excellent pieces of equipment.
 

cb3fish

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Sir,

To answer your question "why cut off factory loops" My answer is the reason I do is because I use spectra backing (even doubled looped) will cut into the soft coating of a fly line either sinking or floating with a factory loop, I cut the factory loop off and replace it with a #50 pound braided loop and never ever have to worry about that problem again Now after that being said if I was a trout fisherman perhaps i wouldn't worry about it, however I am not I mostly in the last 10 years just do blue water. CB
 

wjc

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Hey Carl,
I got a great rigging tip from you quite a while back on another website that has really saved me a bunch of aggravation and maintenance. That tip was to coat pliobond “fairings” with “hard as nails” to make them more slippery than a sardine being trolled by a Zamboni. It also hugely improves their life expectancy, and they can quickly and easily be recoated.

So here’s one that you might like if you are using hollow Spectra or equivalent with blind spliced loop in the backing, regardless of the loop on your fly line end.

That is; do the inside-out part of the blind spliced loop in your hollow backing. But instead of immediately doing the second “lock catch” part, slide the tag end way up the main line of the backing to at least twice the length of your loop. Then you can insert, with a doubled bent length of #3 leader wire, a length of dacron or spectra into just that section of backing which will form the loop.

Then slide the tag end back up to the start of the inserted line, and make the “lock catch.” So what you have is a doubled layered loop portion as a cushion for the handshake connection, but one inside the other without a knot holding two separate strands of backing.

I do that even though I upsplice my backing from 60 lb Toro hollow to 80 lb JB hollow for the last 50 feet of backing that’s attached to the fly line. Makes it much easier to get the handshake connnection apart too.
 

cb3fish

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Jim,

Thanks for the tip :) I never use JB "hollow" backing, I have stuck with 50 pound power pro since they invented dirt, besides who needs 60-80 backing? One 50 # braided loop hooked to another works like a champ.-CB
 

wjc

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Carl,

Are you doing your braided loops with 50# braided mono, 52# dacron or something else? If so, How do you connect the 50# braided loop to the power pro backing? In other words, what do you do in the backing itself to make a loop? Bimini with a surgeon's or something else?

The reason I upsplice from 60" Toro to 8# JB is because of the channel markers, oysters and mussels, crab trap buoys, coral and so on, which isn't an issue in blue water of course. Those 50' take a beating over the course of a season. And I can cut it out and replace it in minutes with a knotless long splice.

Both JB 80# and Toro 60# are smoother than silk and it's those 50 feet of backing attached to the fly line that goes in and out of the guides repeatedly during each fish fight and most susceptible to fraying even after that on the obstacles mentioned above.

Power Pro Ace I've not tried because I've been very happy with the others made in the US and Japan, not China like the Power Pro.

But I know that a lot of the deep droppers like round because it's cheap, and they say the hollow flattens out too much so their 10 pound weights do not hang down straight enough in the current when fishing for swords or tile fish at 1500 to 2000 foot depths.

None of them use braided mono for their wind on leaders to my knowledge. Most use dacron (which has been hollow for many decades) and stuff their 300 lb mono or fluoro leaders way up into it for the finger torture connection then use a blind spliced loop on the other end of the dacron or spectra for a handshake connection to the main line.

So I figure that if it's good enough for them, a shortened version is good enough for me.
 
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cb3fish

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WJC,

First off to answer your question I make my own loops out of #50 braided mono about 5 inches long and use the double reverse system. 50 pound PP breaks at 72 pounds, however because of the poor knots in PP it's rated at #50. I tie a triple surgeons (6 times through) about 2 feet long. Then I fold the single loop back on it's self and tie another surgeons loop 3 times through, Now you have a loop about a foot long with doubled lines. This loop has been tested by a certified scale twice at 56.5 and 57. You can tie a Bimini twist about 50 turns with a doubled loop, pull that line through a piece of even 30 pound braid just like your making another loop with the reversed trap system then use one drop of "lock-tight" and you will have a 100% loop with braid, that loop was invented by a guy named MAX, and was called Max's "Coaxial Cable" a 100% knot in braid. sorry about all the details.without glue the "triple surgeons is the strongest knot in braid "said by the late Lefty". What I explained above is a 100% trouble free knot that has never failed me. Good luck on what ever you decide to tie:) CB
 

karstopo

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Re: 11 Must

I wonder how often the factory loop is the weakest link in the whole set up?

One thing is for sure, if the fish is big enough and strong enough and fast enough and the fisherman doesn't react, anticipate or respond in time, something will fail or break. Could be a knot, a hook, or the rod itself. But if things really go well and the fisherman makes all the right moves and nothing unfortunate occurs, then really big, fast and strong fish can be successfully brought to hand on relatively light tippets with ordinary type of knots and connections.

I'd certainly want a knot or connection to fail before losing the rod to a fish.
 

haziz

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Re: 11 Must

As a firm believer in the KISS (keep it simple, s....) principle, and as a relative newbie at fly fishing, and knot tying, I do appreciate loop to loop connections and consider them a total godsend. I certainly consider them an improvement over my own ham-fisted attempts at nail knots etc.
 

thomasw

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As an avid trout fisherman, I do not like the bulky factory loops when fishing floating flies or nymphing with a long leader: I want the smoothest line-leader connection possible, so I cut off the factory loops and I tie a needle nail knot. Though not as convenient, it is superior in transferring energy from the line to leader; not to mention how well they travel through the guides when landing a trout... I found factory loops lost me fish in this regard. For larger fish like Steelhead I will cut the factory loop and replace it with my own braided loops -- super strong and not as bulky or weighty as the factory loops.
 

flytie09

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Every time I loop-to-loop on a mono leader to my fly line.....I hear Ard's voice in my head about his braided loops. Kinda like this....

 
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Denduke

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I think this was mentioned, loop twice on the loop to loop which makes a “round turn” of the leader loop and it doesn’t pull down but “chokes” the loop above the bottom. Prevents damaging the flyline loop mostly. On heavey/salty stuff I double Surgeons the loop to make more displacement of the “bite”.
 

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flyfishsick

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i have never had a factory loop fail on me? i find them very convenient but will keep an eye on them. thanks for the post
 

Acheron

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Have seen many discussion on this. In the end it seems to come down to preference.

I have never had one fail since they've started making them. I also rarely have leaders longer than my rod for traditional fly fishing which means I don't reel the loop to loop connection into the rod while landing a fish. Even with a nail knot, reeling the knots into your eyelets is dangerous and if the fish is big enough and times it right with a hard run or even turn, it very likely will result in a lost fish.

I change fly line maybe once every 5-8 years even with heavy use and it makes changing to a new leader once a year easy when the loop is there. Somewhere in that 5-8 year range I notice the outer shell of the line cracks open just before the loop. This is usually caused by 5-8 years of use, being rigged up for long periods of time putting a kink right there, etc. After that much time, I'm ok with buying new line :D

For EN, I don't generally have fly line out of the reel, so it doesn't affect me there either.
 

Ippyroy

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Have seen many discussion on this. In the end it seems to come down to preference.

I have never had one fail since they've started making them. I also rarely have leaders longer than my rod for traditional fly fishing which means I don't reel the loop to loop connection into the rod while landing a fish. Even with a nail knot, reeling the knots into your eyelets is dangerous and if the fish is big enough and times it right with a hard run or even turn, it very likely will result in a lost fish.

I change fly line maybe once every 5-8 years even with heavy use and it makes changing to a new leader once a year easy when the loop is there. Somewhere in that 5-8 year range I notice the outer shell of the line cracks open just before the loop. This is usually caused by 5-8 years of use, being rigged up for long periods of time putting a kink right there, etc. After that much time, I'm ok with buying new line :D

For EN, I don't generally have fly line out of the reel, so it doesn't affect me there either.
Nice. I change fly line out every year. One of the perks of being 5 minutes away from world class trout waters all the time.;)
 
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