Fishing with dogs and shock collars and bears

randyflycaster

Well-known member
Messages
831
Reaction score
13
I was fishing on the Bitterroot not too far from Missoula when I turned around and saw a black bear. My dog, who was not on a leash, chased the bear. Luckily, the bear got away, but now I am concerned that the next time my dog sees a bear he and I won't be so lucky.

This morning a woman told me she uses a shock collar in case her dog chases wildlife.

Do any of you folks use a shock collar? If so, would it be a good way to keep my dog from chasing bears or Moose?

Randy
 

okaloosa

Well-known member
Messages
795
Reaction score
100
Location
CO
I was fishing on the Bitterroot not too far from Missoula when I turned around and saw a black bear. My dog, who was not on a leash, chased the bear. Luckily, the bear got away, but now I am concerned that the next time my dog sees a bear he and I won't be so lucky.

This morning a woman told me she uses a shock collar in case her dog chases wildlife.

Do any of you folks use a shock collar? If so, would it be a good way to keep my dog from chasing bears or Moose?

Randy
yes, they work great! after a while I transitioned from the shock mode to using the tone mode..so now if my catahoula chases a buck I just press the "tone" button and she hears a beep and comes back to me...shock collars AKA "e-collars" are very humane when used properly...trainers who do not believe in them are ignorant IMO...do you raise your children with praise only? no...there are consequences for bad behavior..it is up to us to train and protect our dogs...of course in our new society where all kids playing soccer deserve a participation trophy any form of correction gets vilified...E COLLARS work great..
this is what I use...
YouTube
 

randyflycaster

Well-known member
Messages
831
Reaction score
13
Thanks for your reply. What is a good shock setting to make a dog stop chasing? The max is 10.

Randy
 

cooutlaw

Well-known member
Messages
918
Reaction score
103
Location
Colorado
I have been raising, training, and competing, bird dogs for 30+ years at a professional level. I will offer some very straight to the point advice.

A "shock" collar. OR "E-Collar" is a training aid. It allows a trainer to remotely reinforce what a dog has been trained to do or not to do. That's it.

A dog learns by repetition and reinforcement both positive and negative, but an e-collar can only reinforce what a dog already knows. For instance, if a dog has been walked on a leash or longer "check cord" and has encountered "things" that it has been told to avoid "leave it" command...and "has already learned" that squirrels, cats, skunks, deer, etc. are off limits, then an e-collar can be used to tap them on the shoulder at a distance to reinforce "leave it". If a person uses an e-collar to simply burn a dog down by applying negative experience then the dog may or may not "know" why they are being disciplined - they only know that some thing around their neck is applying pain...they then may associate the collar with that pain. If your dog doesn't run to you when they see the collar come out and associate the collar with "fun times ahead" then you used the collar improperly. My dogs will jocky for position to be the first to get the collar put on. Because the collar is just a tool...a tap on the shoulder...to remind them of what they already learned.

When first conditioning a dog to an e-collars use, it should be put on snugly but not tight, the stimulation prongs should be of the correct size for the density of the dogs coat, and a trial should be used for the correct MINIMUM stimulation level of the individual dog. IE: start with tone....beep...beep...dog hears beep...gets used to beep.....let the dog simply "wear" the collar for a couple days...remove the collar and give dog a break...e-collars should not ever be left on dog...the prongs will cause severe neck trauma if left long term...repeat this process...two days max at a time, just wearing the collar.....until nothing negative is associated with the collar. Now, at lowest setting with dog by you sitting....apply stimulation...look for ear twitch...slight, slight ear twitch...if you see the twitch..the dog feels the stimulation...stop at that level. Now condition the dog at the lowest level for what it already knows...sit...sit...dog doesn't sit...stimulate the dog WHILE saying sit.....the dog must KNOW the command and hear it to associate the stimulation with a known action or it will have little result - just confusion for the dog. When stronger reinforcement is needed....like keeping a dog from running deer or other wildlife....you can GRADUALLY turn up the stimulation...a dog should never squeal and growl or bite at a collar's stimulation....if so...it is way too high. Use the collar on common things until the dog realizes that stimulation means reminder....it reminds them of what they already know. Go to places with a collar and leash or off leash areas....introduce the dog to elements less dangerous that it should leave alone...apply stimulation along WITH a verbal command "leave it"...etc. The dog will eventually understand the stimulation and know it means business and right now....when using it...consistency is key....now means now...here/come means here/come NOW. Do not waver in a command ever being optional. Good luck. Do yourself a favor and do further reading on collar use too. Used properly, an e-collar is a great training tool.
 
Last edited:

randyflycaster

Well-known member
Messages
831
Reaction score
13
Thanks for your reply. So I guess the bottom line, if my dog is not trained with a shock collar, and I just shock him when he runs after a bear, the shock won't deter him from chasing?

Randy
 

cooutlaw

Well-known member
Messages
918
Reaction score
103
Location
Colorado
Thanks for your reply. So I guess the bottom line, if my dog is not trained with a shock collar, and I just shock him when he runs after a bear, the shock won't deter him from chasing?

Randy
There is potential the dog will try and outrun the "shock" and run further away.... running from the pain....also the other potential is that the dog will be so startled that it will just hit the ground rolling to get the unknown sting off....leaving the now startled dog easy, and now also handicapped, prey for a larger predator. It may work and the dog may come back or pull off the chase....but it's a very uncalculated risk without properly training. I'd certainly rather have my dog know why it's being stimulated and what it means than to leave it to chance.
 

okaloosa

Well-known member
Messages
795
Reaction score
100
Location
CO
I have been raising, training, and competing, bird dogs for 30+ years at a professional level. I will offer some very straight to the point advice.

A "shock" collar. OR "E-Collar" is a training aid. It allows a trainer to remotely reinforce what a dog has been trained to do or not to do. That's it.

A dog learns by repetition and reinforcement both positive and negative, but an e-collar can only reinforce what a dog already knows. For instance, if a dog has been walked on a leash or longer "check cord" and has encountered "things" that it has been told to avoid "leave it" command...and "has already learned" that squirrels, cats, skunks, deer, etc. are off limits, then an e-collar can be used to tap them on the shoulder at a distance to reinforce "leave it". If a person uses an e-collar to simply burn a dog down by applying negative experience then the dog may or may not "know" why they are being disciplined - they only know that some thing around their neck is applying pain...they then may associate the collar with that pain. If your dog doesn't run to you when they see the collar come out and associate the collar with "fun times ahead" then you used the collar improperly. My dogs will jocky for position to be the first to get the collar put on. Because the collar is just a tool...a tap on the shoulder...to remind them of what they already learned.

When first conditioning a dog to an e-collars use, it should be put on snugly but not tight, the stimulation prongs should be of the correct size for the density of the dogs coat, and a trial should be used for the correct MINIMUM stimulation level of the individual dog. IE: start with tone....beep...beep...dog hears beep...gets used to beep.....let the dog simply "wear" the collar for a couple days...remove the collar and give dog a break...e-collars should not ever be left on dog...the prongs will cause severe neck trauma if left long term...repeat this process...two days max at a time, just wearing the collar.....until nothing negative is associated with the collar. Now, at lowest setting with dog by you sitting....apply stimulation...look for ear twitch...slight, slight ear twitch...if you see the twitch..the dog feels the stimulation...stop at that level. Now condition the dog at the lowest level for what it already knows...sit...sit...dog doesn't sit...stimulate the dog WHILE saying sit.....the dog must KNOW the command and hear it to associate the stimulation with a known action or it will have little result - just confusion for the dog. When stronger reinforcement is needed....like keeping a dog from running deer or other wildlife....you can GRADUALLY turn up the stimulation...a dog should never squeal and growl or bite at a collar's stimulation....if so...it is way too high. Use the collar on common things until the dog realizes that stimulation means reminder....it reminds them of what they already know. Go to places with a collar and leash or off leash areas....introduce the dog to elements less dangerous that it should leave alone...apply stimulation along WITH a verbal command "leave it"...etc. The dog will eventually understand the stimulation and know it means business and right now....when using it...consistency is key....now means now...here/come means here/come NOW. Do not waver in a command ever being optional. Good luck. Do yourself a favor and do further reading on collar use too. Used properly, an e-collar is a great training tool.
I agree 100% with EVERYTHING you said....every command my dog learned was WITHOUT the e-collar....every command should be learned with positive reinforcement...a dog should never be corrected because the owner/trainer fails to communicate what is expected of the dog.....I only use it when I am 100% positive the dog is willingly refusing to obey me and never as a punishment....it is more being used as a distraction from the initial distraction. The only time I "zap" the hell out of her is if she gets too close to a snake, especially a venomous one...then I want her to associate REAL pain with a snake.....my dog associates the e-collar with being something positive because if means she is going outdoors....
 

okaloosa

Well-known member
Messages
795
Reaction score
100
Location
CO
There is potential the dog will try and outrun the "shock" and run further away.... running from the pain....also the other potential is that the dog will be so startled that it will just hit the ground rolling to get the unknown sting off....leaving the now startled dog easy, and now also handicapped, prey for a larger predator. It may work and the dog may come back or pull off the chase....but it's a very uncalculated risk without properly training. I'd certainly rather have my dog know why it's being stimulated and what it means than to leave it to chance.
once again I agree 100%...I went to a professional certified trainer to teach ME how to use the e-collar only after taking my dog to MANY weeks of positive reinforcement only obedience training with the same trainer....I have seen dogs who are trained by boarding 2 weeks with e-collar trainers and they do not all seem like happy campers to me....I want my dog to come to me because I am , in her world, the greatest source of fun and comfort, and not because she will get zapped if she doesn't......but when used properly e-collars can save dogs lives as well as avoiding harm to people....I demand 100% recall from my dog for her safety, not my ego.....
 

cooutlaw

Well-known member
Messages
918
Reaction score
103
Location
Colorado
"I demand 100% recall from my dog for her safety, not my ego....." quote: okaloosa

This is absolutely crucial, and you are spot on in understanding the difference of why. I have trained literally hundreds of bird dogs, pointing and flushing varieties both to the highest of competitive levels. I have worked with about every kind of imaginable owner from group classes to one on ones and first time owners to long veteran bird dog folks. The one thing I can promise is that like their dogs, all owners are different...being able to read an individual dog (or owner) goes a long way in expediting the training process. When professional trainers offer advice, which is rare because doing so leaves interpretation whereas hands on demonstration does not...people who have not seen and experienced extensive training scenarios often have difficulty envisioning the entirety of the thought that is offered in the written word. Further, they have not seen the results personally and do not take the instruction as the exact road map they should follow...they end up varying it to suit their own process and in doing so....get the associated results. For trainers that is job security as we often are called to fix the problem issues the owners created by not listening in the first place. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

For clarity, none of what I put out here is opinion or suggestion, it is absolutely factual process that has been proven, taught, and rendered gospel by any legitimate professional trainer on the planet.

I do not like to mention my accomlishments as I believe they should speak for themselves....but on a blind forum....I will quantify my experience for validation of what I speak:

I have guided, raised, trained, and owned, 13 AKC Master Hunters (including finishing the second youngest of all time), 2 NAVHDA VC's, handfuls of UT's, 5 Field champions, 2 AFC's, 3 NSTRA Field Champions, 2 NAGDA National Champions, as well as training dogs to similar levels for dozens of clients over the years, and bomb, arson, drug dogs for numerous city, county, state and government agencies, and personal protection guard dogs, agility dogs, and upland and waterfowl dogs for average hunters. There is a 15 indoor/outdoor run 1800 square foot, heated and air conditioned kennel facility adjacent to my training fields at my home. Point is....this is not my first rodeo.

I know a little about fly fishing after 30 years experience and some time guiding and I try and contribute when I can. I know 20 times more about dogs and training than I do about fly fishing. In fact, automotive and dogs are likely the only two things that I ever was close to being a leading expert on. When I say something about either one, it's a safe bet you can take it to the bank.
 
Last edited:

okaloosa

Well-known member
Messages
795
Reaction score
100
Location
CO
coutlaw,
your accomplishments are amazing...
I love watching well trained dogs that are happy and not robotic in their tasks
If I was younger I would love to do some type of ringsport...
tried schutzhund with one of my dobies but she was too soft..
did some decoy work with a schutzhund 3 from germany and that was a blast......
 

cooutlaw

Well-known member
Messages
918
Reaction score
103
Location
Colorado
coutlaw,
your accomplishments are amazing...
I love watching well trained dogs that are happy and not robotic in their tasks
If I was younger I would love to do some type of ringsport...
tried schutzhund with one of my dobies but she was too soft..
did some decoy work with a schutzhund 3 from germany and that was a blast......
Thank you, but the dogs did the work and just made me look like I knew what I was doing. Great genetics do amazing things. The majority of my focus has been on working field dogs, particularly DK's or commonly in the US German Shorthair Pointers...my breed stock started 30 years ago with two fabulous German import dogs. I've remained true to those genetics with minimal out-crosses and consistently have line bred on the maternal side....I've kept a roster of those genetics domestically as well as original lineage and can now trace 19 generations of these genes, amazingly, with no hereditary genetic defects of any form. And I have run IC%'s as high as 28%.

I've recently done a similar start with English Setters. My program is downsized today significantly from what it was, and I now only train selectively for family, friends, and guides and judges that have my dogs and use specifically my breedings for their personal dogs. It's been a glorious and interesting ride, I've met some wonderful people and I hope I have left a positive impact on bettering the breed. Nobody gets into dogs to make money, if they do they will soon be broke, but rather they do it for the love of the breed. This has always been my motivation and yet today I still remain amazed every fall and winter I spend afield with them.
 

cooutlaw

Well-known member
Messages
918
Reaction score
103
Location
Colorado
Here's a few of my pups:

rip7.jpgPictures 276.jpg

Five week old pup on live zip tied Quail:

Pictures 351.jpg

A Master Hunter in the Making 9 month old in training:
blizzard and valhalla training SadieTango pups 092.jpg

My dog that Tri-Tronics now Garmin uses for their e-collar ads:

blizzard and valhalla training SadieTango pups 089.jpg
 

okaloosa

Well-known member
Messages
795
Reaction score
100
Location
CO
absolutely gorgeous and focused dogs,,,,
I love working and hunting breeds, especially short haired breeds with athletic builds.
for 60 years I had only dobermans and then jumped ship and got a black phase Louisiana catahoula

pennyestes.jpg
 

strmanglr scott

Well-known member
Messages
222
Reaction score
2
Location
Michigan
E collars do work and I inquired about dog training for a friends dog and of the three professionals I talked to, everyone used an e-collar. It was part of the cost of the course and went home w the dog.

I got an e-collar for keeping my dog in yard. It's not a training collar. Just beeps as she gets close to the boundary and if she passes it, gets zapped. I don't need to put it on her anymore she stays in yard but I still put it on for when another person walks by the house with a dog, she goes a little berserk.

Interesting, I used a training collar with her to keep down her barking. I only put it on the beep warning. No bark, continues to bark, signal her, she stops barking instantly. Did that for a few hours one day. I let her out later when I wasn't going out and she barked like normal. Next day I took her out, put the collar on her, she didn't bark. Later that day she went outside without it on, she barked. I went and got the collar and put it on her, no barking. She quickly learned what it was and when it was on or not.

She's a weird dog. At the house she barks at everything and nothing. If she sees someone walking their dog she is absolutely nuts. I take her to the dog park, she wants almost nothing to do with other dogs. She will walk up to other people before another dog. She's calm as can be and just wags her tail looking for attention. My brothers dog and the two dogs a friend has had she rough house plays with. Dogs at the park, nothing, avoids them if anything.
 

jdwy

Well-known member
Messages
702
Reaction score
4
Location
Cody, WY
Later that day she went outside without it on, she barked. I went and got the collar and put it on her, no barking. She quickly learned what it was and when it was on or not.
Years ago I knew a horse trainer that also had a few hounds (mountain lion problems). He had his hounds in their pen and I noticed he'd made a nice little wooden box, even painted silver, hanging around one dogs neck. He'd made a dummy shock unit for the dog to wear so he would think he was wearing the real thing. Ingenuity at its best!
Or, you could just leave your dog at home when fishing.
Not me, half the fun of fishing is having my dog with me.
 

myt1

Well-known member
Messages
1,383
Reaction score
42
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
[Not me, half the fun of fishing is having my dog with me.[/QUOTE]

How much fun is it for the people around you?

It certainly wasn't fun for that bear that was chanced.
 
Top