Fly line loop sinking

Narf

Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Location
Mo
I purchases hook and hackle dt fly line and tied a loop on the end with 3 nail knots made from backing material. After fishing for an hour's or so I noticed the loop was sinking a few inches in the water. Should u have used a different material or add fly floatant to the loop?

Thanks, narf

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

Ard

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
21,221
Reaction score
3,685
Location
Wasilla / Skwentna, Alaska
When I had lines without braided or welded loops I would nail knot a butt with a perfection loop on it straight onto the line then seal the end of the line with a tiny dab of rubber cement. Your loop sounds heavy and the dacron will absorb water.
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
8,310
Reaction score
2,184
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
So you made a loop on the end of the fly line by looping the end on itself fixing the loop with 3 backing nail knots.

I would have tied the butt of the leader directly to the end of the fly line with a nail knot of the butt around the fly line end, then coated that knot with pliobond or a UV cured resin as in method 1 in the post below:

Braided loops question? - Page 2
 

bumble54

Well-known member
Messages
757
Reaction score
224
Location
Sheffield UK
Did you seal the end before forming the loop?. When adding/using/forming any kind of loop on the end of your fly line first gently heat the very end of the line and roll it between wet fingers, this rolls the line coating over the end of the line and seals it. Superglue's tend to be brittle and like most other sealants are at best temporary and can react with the line coating causing it to crack. No need for extra's, the line coating is the best sealant there is for any fly line.
 

flav

Well-known member
Messages
1,136
Reaction score
388
Location
oregon
Your line is probably sinking because water is soaking into the dacron nail knots and perhaps up into the core of your line. I secure my loops with a single nail knot of 8 or 10 lb mono and a very light coat of a flexible cement like pliobond or aquaseal. Eventually tiny cracks will form in the line and the loop will start to sink again, but this can take years depending on how much you fish. Then I just cut off a couple inches and make a new loop.
 

Narf

Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Location
Mo
Live and learn...now I'm concerned how far water could have soaked into the fly line as it was not coated. Should I trim a few inches off or will it dry out over a couple days after cutting the loop off?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
8,310
Reaction score
2,184
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
Most fly lines have a tip section that is 4-6" long. So you will not lose any of the taper by cutting that tip section off. I would cut off the loop and use the method I posted.



Note that the "Off Brand" lines like the H&H are the lower end fly lines from either one of the major manufacturers. However, since the Chinese are now making fly line, it could be Chinese. With fly lines you generally get what you pay for and the best strategy is to buy name brand fly lines when they go on sale.

Depending on the quality of the line, the tip may still sink.
 

flav

Well-known member
Messages
1,136
Reaction score
388
Location
oregon
Live and learn...now I'm concerned how far water could have soaked into the fly line as it was not coated. Should I trim a few inches off or will it dry out over a couple days after cutting the loop off?
I don't believe it could have soaked into the core very far, unless there are cracks in the fly line coating in that area. I would think cutting it back just a little and letting it dry a couple days would work just fine. You should also try cleaning and treating your line, that will help too, but like Silver said, it is a off brand and some of those don't float particularly well no matter what you do.
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
8,310
Reaction score
2,184
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
Narf,

Modern fly lines are self-lubricating/self-coating. However they do need to be cleaned when they get dirty, especially if you fish in a stream with a lot of silt. However, a dirty line does not seem to be your problem since the sinking happened right away.

It may be that the coating on your fly line is not a modern self lubricating coating and it does need treatment like flav suggests. So buy a fly line treatment and do not use a treatment for automobiles like Armorall.

Sexyloops Rio Products

“How best to treat Rio Lines? What do you personally use (silicone spray? Armorall?)

"Never, ever use Armorall on a PVC fly line. It breaks down the bond and results in very poor durability. The line will dry out and harden with constant use of Armorall. We recommend a mild soapy water with a flannel to clean the line, then if you want to re-lubricate it, apply a 100% silicone, though very lightly. All PVC fly lines use silicone as a lubricant, so it is best to use the base ingredient to prolong the line's life."


Flyline - Page 2 - Fly Fishing - Nova Scotia Fishing

"Armor All

From Scientific Anglers:

SA would advise against using Armor All. We have found that it will accelerate the aging of the fly lines and the lines may crack prematurely. Our fly lines need very little or no dressing - only cleaning. If you fish a lot - 2 seasons would be a good life expectancy for a line before cracking, which would be lessened with the use of product such as Armor All being applied. Also there are many factors that can accelerate cracking. 1. Time of use, 2. exposure to sun/heat 3. care of lines 4. applying non recommended chemicals to the line (Insect repellent, sunscreen, Mucilen, Armor All, etc.), 5. water content 6. lack of proper cleaning.

We are attaching a document regarding line care.

Hope this helps - thanks for choosing Scientific Anglers
To optimize the performance of your Scientific Anglers fly lines, Here are Our recommendations:

1. Line Cleaning: The best way to clean the line is to use a SA cleaning pad. These do the best job of cleaning your lines, and it is the quickest and easiest method. Mild hand soap and water on a cloth work well also. Don’t use detergents or harsh soaps, some of the important lubricants may be removed from the line’s surface.
Clean your line if you see that it is getting dirty, or if you notice that it doesn’t float or shoot as well as used to. New lines will require less periodic cleaning.

2. Maximum Performance – For maximum performance and line life, keep your lines clean using the above methods. Should you desire a further, temporary performance boost, consider dressing your line with SA line dressing. Any line will shoot and float better after dressing, although the effects are temporary as the dressing will wear off with use, and the dressing tends to attract dirt and algae. Our new coatings benefit less from dressing than other coatings as they are slicker to start with.

3. Dressings: Use only a silicone based dressing. We recommend Scientific Anglers Dressing. Avoid solvent based dressings like Mucilin which can actually damage fly lines.

4. Protection: Avoid as much as possible, excessive exposure to heat and UV light when you store your lines. Do not leave them for long periods of time in a hot car, this can be very damaging.

5. Things to Avoid: Avoid line contact with any solvent based chemicals as well as items such as: insect repellent with DEET and sunscreens.

6. Storage – It is not necessary to remove lines from your reels for off-season storage. They should be clean and dry, and should be stored where they will not be exposed to heat, light, or any chemicals. If you have lines that you plan to store for extended periods, the refrigerator or even freezer is best."



How to Clean a Fly Line - Part 1 on Vimeo
 

Narf

Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Location
Mo
Narf,

Modern fly lines are self-lubricating/self-coating. However they do need to be cleaned when they get dirty, especially if you fish in a stream with a lot of silt. However, a dirty line does not seem to be your problem since the sinking happened right away.

It may be that the coating on your fly line is not a modern self lubricating coating and it does need treatment like flav suggests. So buy a fly line treatment and do not use a treatment for automobiles like Armorall.

Sexyloops Rio Products

“How best to treat Rio Lines? What do you personally use (silicone spray? Armorall?)

"Never, ever use Armorall on a PVC fly line. It breaks down the bond and results in very poor durability. The line will dry out and harden with constant use of Armorall. We recommend a mild soapy water with a flannel to clean the line, then if you want to re-lubricate it, apply a 100% silicone, though very lightly. All PVC fly lines use silicone as a lubricant, so it is best to use the base ingredient to prolong the line's life."


Flyline - Page 2 - Fly Fishing - Nova Scotia Fishing

"Armor All

From Scientific Anglers:

SA would advise against using Armor All. We have found that it will accelerate the aging of the fly lines and the lines may crack prematurely. Our fly lines need very little or no dressing - only cleaning. If you fish a lot - 2 seasons would be a good life expectancy for a line before cracking, which would be lessened with the use of product such as Armor All being applied. Also there are many factors that can accelerate cracking. 1. Time of use, 2. exposure to sun/heat 3. care of lines 4. applying non recommended chemicals to the line (Insect repellent, sunscreen, Mucilen, Armor All, etc.), 5. water content 6. lack of proper cleaning.

We are attaching a document regarding line care.

Hope this helps - thanks for choosing Scientific Anglers
To optimize the performance of your Scientific Anglers fly lines, Here are Our recommendations:

1. Line Cleaning: The best way to clean the line is to use a SA cleaning pad. These do the best job of cleaning your lines, and it is the quickest and easiest method. Mild hand soap and water on a cloth work well also. Don’t use detergents or harsh soaps, some of the important lubricants may be removed from the line’s surface.
Clean your line if you see that it is getting dirty, or if you notice that it doesn’t float or shoot as well as used to. New lines will require less periodic cleaning.

2. Maximum Performance – For maximum performance and line life, keep your lines clean using the above methods. Should you desire a further, temporary performance boost, consider dressing your line with SA line dressing. Any line will shoot and float better after dressing, although the effects are temporary as the dressing will wear off with use, and the dressing tends to attract dirt and algae. Our new coatings benefit less from dressing than other coatings as they are slicker to start with.

3. Dressings: Use only a silicone based dressing. We recommend Scientific Anglers Dressing. Avoid solvent based dressings like Mucilin which can actually damage fly lines.

4. Protection: Avoid as much as possible, excessive exposure to heat and UV light when you store your lines. Do not leave them for long periods of time in a hot car, this can be very damaging.

5. Things to Avoid: Avoid line contact with any solvent based chemicals as well as items such as: insect repellent with DEET and sunscreens.

6. Storage – It is not necessary to remove lines from your reels for off-season storage. They should be clean and dry, and should be stored where they will not be exposed to heat, light, or any chemicals. If you have lines that you plan to store for extended periods, the refrigerator or even freezer is best."



How to Clean a Fly Line - Part 1 on Vimeo
Thanks silver. I have some dressing on the way. I also just purchased a cutthroat braided furled leader. I plan on cutting the loop off my fly line and adding a nail knot with 20 lb cameleon and a loop on the other end to attach it. I'll make sure to coat the end of the fly line this time with uv knot sense. Part of me wants to skip this and just nail knot the cutthroat directly to the fly line but I think it would be a bit bulky. Any experience with this?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
8,310
Reaction score
2,184
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
Thanks silver. I have some dressing on the way. I also just purchased a cutthroat braided furled leader. I plan on cutting the loop off my fly line and adding a nail knot with 20 lb cameleon and a loop on the other end to attach it. I'll make sure to coat the end of the fly line this time with uv knot sense. Part of me wants to skip this and just nail knot the cutthroat directly to the fly line but I think it would be a bit bulky. Any experience with this?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
I've never heard of nail knotting a furled or braided leader. Nail knot are for monofilament and not multi-filament leaders like braided and furled materials so DO NOT nail knot the butt section of furled or braided leader to the fly line.

Note that braided and furled are not synonymous. So Cutthroat leaders are furled. Orvis sells braided leaders.

Braided Leaders or Furled Leaders | Trout Pro Store

Everything You Wanted To Know About Flyfishing Leaders But Were Afraid To Ask | Fly Fishing | Gink and Gasoline | How to Fly Fish | Trout Fishing | Fly Tying | Fly Fishing Blog


Braided is multistrand woven material.




Furled is single strand twisted material

http://www.peninsulaflyfishers.org/resources/Documents/Tackle/furled_leader/Furled_leader.pdf

 

Narf

Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Location
Mo
I've never heard of nail knotting a furled or braided leader. Nail knot are for monofilament and not multi-filament leaders like braided and furled materials so DO NOT nail knot the butt section of furled or braided leader to the fly line.

Note that braided and furled are not synonymous. So Cutthroat leaders are furled. Orvis sells braided leaders.

Braided Leaders or Furled Leaders | Trout Pro Store

Everything You Wanted To Know About Flyfishing Leaders But Were Afraid To Ask | Fly Fishing | Gink and Gasoline | How to Fly Fish | Trout Fishing | Fly Tying | Fly Fishing Blog


Braided is multistrand woven material.




Furled is single strand twisted material

http://www.peninsulaflyfishers.org/resources/Documents/Tackle/furled_leader/Furled_leader.pdf

Thanks for the clarification. I've read cutthroats posts on here that the nail knot is how he attached them.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
8,310
Reaction score
2,184
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
I personally would not nail knot a furled leader to the fly line. The problem with nail knotting a furled leader is that a furled leader has a fixed length and fixed taper. So all you can adjust is the tippet. This is very limiting in my view.

For example, what if you wanted a longer furled leader base, you would have to cut off the furled leader and nail knot another one to the fly line. But it gets worse. The furled leader you cut off would untwist unless you tied the end somehow to preserve it. What if you wanted to switch to a regular mono leader? Again, you would have to cut off the furled leader.

So I would nail knot the Chameleon to the end of the fly line, tie a perfection loop on the end and do a loop to loop connection to the loop of the furled leader. Then you can change the leader to adapt to streamer fishing, nymphing, dries, or what ever you want to do. You can also add a sinking versileader or polyleader system to the chameleon loop to make a sink tip section. A loop to loop connection system is the way to go in my opinion.

Gorge Fly Shop Blog: Sink Tips, Polyleaders, Versileaders - A Buyer's Guide
 
Top