Is this a new fly?

kingf000

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I've been catching lots of fish on a copper headed light coloured GRHE that looks nothing like the nymphs that you see from kick sampling the river. So I wondered whether it is mimicking a parasited shrimp. I've tied it on a curved hook with the copper bead half way down the body. It catches fish, if anything better than the original. I've ordered some orange beads to see if they are better. I think it may also sit on its back in the river, with the hook point upwards as I don't seem to catch the bottom so much. I've seen nothing like this on an internet search of beaded shrimps/scuds, so is it new?
 

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bumble54

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The short answer is no, very few flies a new, just variations on a theme. Hares ear and copper are not at all unusual.
 

kingf000

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The short answer is no, very few flies a new, just variations on a theme. Hares ear and copper are not at all unusual.
That is an interesting interpretation. Going by that, for example the covid vaccines are not new! All the components of the vaccine were known and used for many years in research labs., the novelty was putting them all together in the appropriate way to get a new effect that was demonstrated in clinical studies!
 

bumble54

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That is an interesting interpretation. Going by that, for example the covid vaccines are not new! All the components of the vaccine were known and used for many years in research labs., the novelty was putting them all together in the appropriate way to get a new effect that was demonstrated in clinical studies!
I think you've wandered off into a completely different dimension there. A PTN tied with thread, or with copper wire, is still a PTN. Would the fly picture be a different fly if the bead was at the head?, I don't think so, it would just fish differently.
 

flav

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Looks similar to several scud imitations I've seen. The mid body bead is usually meant to imitate an egg sac and its usually orange or pink. Is it something new, well, I'd call it a variation on an existing pattern.
 

kingf000

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Looks similar to several scud imitations I've seen. The mid body bead is usually meant to imitate an egg sac and its usually orange or pink. Is it something new, well, I'd call it a variation on an existing pattern.
Thank you. I found this with a mid-body bead, but it still had the tungsten bead at the head!

I don't really care whether it is a new fly or a 'variation', just interested if anyone had seen or successfully used such a fly. The strictly legal definition of 'new' is something that hasn't been exactly described ever before, anywhere, even if it IS just a new combination of old materials. After all, isn't a new painting just a different combination of paints, a new piece of music just a different combination of notes or a new book just a different combination of words, or are they all just variations? I just wondered, not whether a bead had been placed mid-body, but whether the weighted tungsten bead had, which would totally change the action of the fly under water. If it hasn't, then by the legal definition it is new.
 

dr d

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I've been catching lots of fish on a copper headed light coloured GRHE that looks nothing like the nymphs that you see from kick sampling the river. So I wondered whether it is mimicking a parasited shrimp. I've tied it on a curved hook with the copper bead half way down the body. It catches fish, if anything better than the original. I've ordered some orange beads to see if they are better. I think it may also sit on its back in the river, with the hook point upwards as I don't seem to catch the bottom so much. I've seen nothing like this on an internet search of beaded shrimps/scuds, so is it new?
hi,

John mingo described this as a sort of heritage from al troth/ lee kinsey;some tricky frenchs use

them routinely on graylings because of the more natural sinking character.all in all this may be used

with different coloured heads since some tenths of years...sorry.
 

silver creek

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Looks similar to several scud imitations I've seen. The mid body bead is usually meant to imitate an egg sac and its usually orange or pink. Is it something new, well, I'd call it a variation on an existing pattern.
Flav,

I also thought that the mid body orange sac in a scud was the egg sack but that is not the case. Scuds carry their eggs UNDER their bodies by the legs and NOT in their bodies.

Then what is that orange thing?

Last night, Wisconsin TU had a Zoom presentation by a DNR fisheries biologist and part of the presentation was scuds. It turns out that the orange sac is a parasite which uses the scud as in intermediate host.


See the pattern below.



"scuds, can often be infected by a parasite called Acanthocephalon, which appears as a small orange dot on their backs. These infected scuds are often mistaken for pregnant females."



"Another trigger coloration is when the scud gets infected by a parasite called, Acanthocephalan. The parasite is orange in color and is often ingested by scuds. The parasite takes residence in the middle of the scuds back and matures into an orange spot recognized by trout. For some odd reason the parasite also alters the scuds behavior so that it is attracted to light when disturbed and flees to the surface."

Screen Shot 2021-05-06 at 4.03.42 PM.png
 
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kingf000

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hi,

John mingo described this as a sort of heritage from al troth/ lee kinsey;some tricky frenchs use

them routinely on graylings because of the more natural sinking character.all in all this may be used

with different coloured heads since some tenths of years...sorry.
Do you have a reference to this on the internet? The only thing I could find is from his book https://www.johnmingo.com/pdf/Fly-T...the-Western-Spring-Creeks-and-Tail-Waters.pdf on page 36 which doesn't have the bead. I've found lots of examples of using a lead underbelly for weight and a plastic bead for the parasite.
 

kingf000

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If the general consensus is that it is a variant, a variant of what? I tie some simple scud patterns using the same dubbing, wire, hook but with a lead underbelly for the weight, so is it a KungFoo shrimp? Alternatively I started off from the beaded GRHE, moved the bead to the middle and switched to a curved hook, so is it a KungFoo GRHE?

This debate about a new fly got me thinking. Tying a thin bodied fly with a soft hackle, concave to the rear - a spider fly. Using exactly the same materials but tying the hackle with the concave forward - a Tenkara fly!
 

bumble54

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Gotta learn something new every day, that's why I come here.
Thanks Silver.
I was going to post exactly the same but had to clean the keyboard instead after dropping peanut butter sandwich on it. :LOL:
(that is true, by the way).
 

kingf000

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Flav,

I also thought that the mid body orange sac in a scud was the egg sack but that is not the case. Scuds carry their eggs UNDER their bodies by the legs and NOT in their bodies.

Then what is that orange thing?

Last night, Wisconsin TU had a Zoom presentation by a DNR fisheries biologist and part of the presentation was scuds. It turns out that the orange sac is a parasite which uses the scud as in intermediate host.


See the pattern below.



"scuds, can often be infected by a parasite called Acanthocephalon, which appears as a small orange dot on their backs. These infected scuds are often mistaken for pregnant females."



"Another trigger coloration is when the scud gets infected by a parasite called, Acanthocephalan. The parasite is orange in color and is often ingested by scuds. The parasite takes residence in the middle of the scuds back and matures into an orange spot recognized by trout. For some odd reason the parasite also alters the scuds behavior so that it is attracted to light when disturbed and flees to the surface."

View attachment 35035
Yes, the behviour of the scud is changed so that they spend more time in the open where the trout can gorge on them.
 

WadeK in to Deep

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So, I'm hearing scientific backing for tying hot spots into Scuds, which seems to have spilled over into EVERYTHING else. Makes more sense than just the old "They can see it better!" argument for hot spots. Of course trout don't have the brain power to figure out it works with scuds but not ...
 

proheli

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Well, I see so many patterns that look very similar and they all get a new name. I’ve personally never seen a scud that was so fuzzy before, and for me that is more unique than other flys that get their own name. I vote “yes” it’s a new fly. :)
 
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