Lefty kreh style casting question

clayed21085

Well-known member
Messages
51
Reaction score
0
I'm confused a little about some key points lefty trys to explain like dropping your elbow causes tailing loops ( dropping your elbow/hand doesn't allow the tip to be rotated out of the way of the top leg of the line) can anybody really explain in detail his theorys and the info to back them up, I'm having a hard time understanding some ofvhis methods
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
7,204
Reaction score
593
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
Can you point use to the link where he states that? Maybe with some illustrations?

This is the Lefty Kreh link that I have that describes the causes of a tailing loop.

Tailing Loops… Be Gone by Lefty Kreh | Dan Blanton » Fly Fishing Resources

When Lefty Kreh says that is the rod tip stopping in a straight line path, he means that at the stop, the rod is pulling the fly line in a SLP. When the rod straightens, the rod tip goes up (the rod elongates). The caster needs tip the rod tip out of the way of the trailing fly line or the fly leg will cross up and over the rod leg of the loop. For tight loop without a tailing loop, we want a SLP for the rod tip BUT at the stop, the rod is dipped down out of the way of the following fly line. This is the a flicking of the wrist so the rod tip dips. It has been called a micro-wrist, or a "tap". I think this is what Lefty means by rotating the tip our of the way.

The amount of that wrist flick determines the size of the loop.

There was an excellent article on casting by Simon Gawesworth in Fly Fisherman Magazine. In the article is this illustration #5 below. The dotted is called a chord, a line which joins two points on an arc, and it represents the "effective rod length" of a flexed fly rod. The caster must accelerate the rod smoothly to prevent a sudden shortening of the "effective rod length" that will cause a tailing loop. When this compressed rod straightens at the stop, the straightened rod will take the rod tip above the level of the trailing fly line unless the rod tip is rotated out of the way just before the stop.



When the rod tip travels in a straight line, loop size is controlled by a micro flick of the wrist just before the stop. This micro flick speeds up the rod tip and moves it out of the way of the following fly line. It tips the rod tip down a bit and controls the loop size. Otherwise, the "effective rod length" lengthens as the rod straightens at the stop. The rod tip moves above the level of the following line and a tailing loop develops.The size of this flick controls the loop size.*

Note that in the photo of Jason Borger below, he has already flicked his wrist down at the stop.



The Illustration below is from Jason's book on casting and corresponds to the photo above. Size of the wrist flick determines the size of the loop after a SLP rod tip path.



Fly casters who think the wrist must be absolutely locked are surprised when they learn of the late micro flick. But it is a necessary move for a good cast and to prevent a tailing loop.

The Federation of Fly Fishers Master Casting Clinic Study Guide states:

"The wrist is better suited for quick, final movements than for those requiring sustained, evenly applied force. ------- Other instructors believe this wrist action is so important that they emphasize it in their teaching. Lefty and Joan Wulff cast with different styles, yet both have stated that they use large muscles to provide force and direction to throw the line, but a late, quick wrist movement to control the size of the casting loop. ------- Longtime East Coast instructor Bill Cairns has similarly described this wrist action. Doug Swisher has taught it as a "micro-wrist" movement and Joe Humphreys as a "tap". ------ On the forward cast, I want to build in wrist action as part of the stop. To do this, I need to channel a student’s wrist movement into a late time frame within the cast."

Barny Wong has studied tailing loops with slo-mo analysis of rod tip and fly line path. The flick of teh rod tip down prevents tailing loops.

http://www.flyfisherman.com/feature/fly-casting-overcoming-the-tailing-loop/

Here is a more complete description of the tailing loop and fly rod shortening during the cast.

Any thoughts on a casting issue? - Fly Fishing - Fly Tying
 
Last edited:

clayed21085

Well-known member
Messages
51
Reaction score
0
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U_FnbGfc0I&sns=em[/ame]
The audio is a little screwy but maybe you can hear it better than me, you'll see how the gentleman casts with his hand starting up higher and ending lower with a resulting tailing loop.
 

bigjim5589

Well-known member
Messages
3,499
Reaction score
138
Location
Manning, S. C. (formerly MD)
I can't explain all of what Lefty teaches, but it has helped me with my casting.

In the video he talks about keeping the rod hand at the same level. I've seen his casting demonstrations several times, and in them he may also talk about placing the casting arm elbow on a "shelf". This means the same thing, since keeping the elbow always on the same horizontal geometric plane, the rod hand remains at the same level. Otherwise, "dipping" the rod hand, also dips the rod and results in the tailing loops as is shown in the video.

Notice too how he uses his body, and not just his arm.

Amazing fellow and fun to be around too! :D
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
7,204
Reaction score
593
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
YouTube
The audio is a little screwy but maybe you can hear it better than me, you'll see how the gentleman casts with his hand starting up higher and ending lower with a resulting tailing loop.
Well I will say that is pure bullsh*t. The world's best casters pull the rod down and to pull the rod down, the hand must drop.

The elbow forward style of casting is what Mel Kreiger, Steve Rajeff, Joan Wulff, Gary Borger, Jason Borger, Steve Korich and Maxine McCormick use and that rod stoke is performed by lowering the hand.

Maxine McCormick just won 2 medals at the world championships at the age of 12! That is correct, she is 12 years old and took two medals in a competition of the best women casters in the world just recently in Estonia.

Junior Fly Caster on Vimeo

12-Year-old girl wins Fly-Casting World Title | Flyfishing Blog

And she casts by dropping the hand in the elbow forwards style as seen in the video below taken when she won the US Women's competition at age 11.

YouTube

This elbow forward style of world champions is described by Al Kyte.

Bad Request

"Most elbow-forward casters also use this vertical plane, offset slightly, for the back cast to simplify the fly line's path as it changes direction from backward to forward. The arm-lifting motion of this back cast is called "shoulder flexion." Lowering the elbow on the forward cast is "shoulder extension." This is the arm style of people who have most influenced casting in California, including Jimmy Green, Mel Krieger and Steve and Tim Rajeff. They personify a long-standing link between our interests in tournament fly casting and trout and steelhead fly fishing. The elbow-forward style also characterizes the casts of other notables, such as Joan Wulff, Jerry Siem, and Gary Borger."

Jason Borger Video Basic Foundation Cast: Click on the link below and you will see Jason pull his hand down for the cast.


The stop motion photo of the basic foundation cast below comes from the Henry's Fork Lodge owned by Nelson Ishiyama. Nelson and I are college buddies, and he is the editor of Mel Krieger's book, The Essence of Flycasting.

Note that the hand drops almost straight down and there is NO tailing loop.



Here's Nelson's explanation of the "perfect cast".

"Pulling the rod downward while the rod is still cocked back loads the strongest part of the rod, the butt, and makes for an easy, compact casting stroke. On the other hand, pushing, poking or thrusting the rod forward puts the bend into the weakest part of the rod, the tip. Think of the rod as a piece of rope - you can't do anything by pushing it, you must pull it to make it go. Pull the rod down!

The caster's elbow remains bent throughout the cast and his arm never straightens at the elbow!

He is using the strong muscles of his shoulder to easily flex the rod and doesn't need the weaker biceps or forearm muscles to do much work. Again, no need to push or thrust the rod forward. Simply get the butt bent first and the power will flow out through the rod tip without any conscious effort to push the tip forward. Notice the rod bending progressively farther up the rod in the exposure series.

The caster stops the rod high and hard. .....

This compact style of casting was developed by tournament casters for maximum efficiency and accuracy and is commonly known as the Golden Gate style after the famed Golden Gate Angling & Casting Club. It is, in my opinion, not just for tournament casters, but the best for easy, repeatable and accurate fishing casts."



Blog - Henrys Fork Lodge

Joan Wulff's Basic casting motion is up and down:


Slow motion basic foundation cast by Chris Korich. Chris Korich is renowned as a National & World Casting Champion, the 2010 Orvis National Casting Champion (Men's Tournament Division), a runner-up in "Fly Fishing Masters" team competition, and the only man to beat Steve Rajeff for the ACA National Grand All Around Champion crown in 40 years. He is also considered by many to be one of the best casting analysts, coaches and instructors in North America.

Note that he pulls his hand DOWN to PULLS the rod through the rod stroke!​


Here's Jason demonstrating the start and stop points of the "foundation cast". Note that his hand is lower at the forward stop point.





Examine the series of photos and illustrations in the casting blog by Gary Borger. Note that the casting stroke drawing of Gary Borger and the stop motion photo above from the Henry's Fork Lodge are identical in their starting and stopping position.

Gary Borger » Blog Archive » Casting From the Shoulder

The take away point is that regardless of whether you cast vertically or sidearm as Lefty Kreh does the key is to flick the rod tip out of the way.

Now go back to the Lefty Kreh Video and note that at the rod stop he pushes the rod forward and UP. He DOES NOT flick the rod tip DOWN out of way with a micro wrist flick. Instead he pushes the rod tip UP purposely to cause the tailing loop. THAT is what causes the tailing loop and not the casting plane = vertical vs horizontal. The rod does not care whether it is being moved in a vertical or horizontal plane. All that matters is getting that rod tip out of the way so a regular loop can form.

The demo below of what causes a tailing loop is a big crock of you know what!

YouTube

Compare what Lefty does with what champion Chris Korich does below. Chris does NOT push the rod tip forward and up at the end of the rod stroke. Hence, no tailing loops. My opinion is that Lefty knows he is purposely causing a tailing loop. He is too good a caster not to know what is causing the tailing loop. There can be no other conclusion than he is knowingly doing it to favor his style of casting.

 
Last edited:

clayed21085

Well-known member
Messages
51
Reaction score
0
You can see how this is highly confusing to a beginner/ intermediate caster, I'm still seeing no sense in the video regarding the inability to move the tip down and out of the way if you move your hand down like he says, I think this is what bothers me the most. It sets me apart from casting styles. I have an "elbow forward style" that I've been working the kinks out of but I have a hard time seeing the advantage over the more "straight arm/elbow/hand style for distance because of the lower line trajectory on the forward cast, you tend to aim higher on the backcast, lower on the front, almost like a pick-up laydown cast it feels for me, at that angle the fly unrolls very close to the surface. Utilizing this style for high trajectory casting seems difficult if not impossible, either way I tail regardless of style and it seems i'm curving my backcast as I see "cork-screwing"loops more often that not, so there's some tracking issues as well.
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
7,204
Reaction score
593
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
You can see how this is highly confusing to a beginner/ intermediate caster, I'm still seeing no sense in the video regarding the inability to move the tip down and out of the way if you move your hand down like he says, I think this is what bothers me the most. It sets me apart from casting styles. I have an "elbow forward style" that I've been working the kinks out of but I have a hard time seeing the advantage over the more "straight arm/elbow/hand style for distance because of the lower line trajectory on the forward cast, you tend to aim higher on the backcast, lower on the front, almost like a pick-up laydown cast it feels for me, at that angle the fly unrolls very close to the surface. Utilizing this style for high trajectory casting seems difficult if not impossible, either way I tail regardless of style and it seems i'm curving my backcast as I see "cork-screwing"loops more often that not, so there's some tracking issues as well.
A beginner may turn their head to track the backcast. When your turn your head to track the backcast, you also turn your body. This introduces a curve to the path of the rod tip. For the right handed caster, the cast will tend to curve to the left.

The advantage of the elbow forward cast is casting accuracy and distance. The track of the fly rod tip is IN LINE with the target. With the Low Elbow (Side Arm) Style of Lefty Kreh accuracy is more difficult. That is why all accuracy casters use the elbow forward style. Distance is also greater because the rod tip path is higher off the ground/water surface so the cast has time to totally unfurl before falling down. It also has an advantage when wading because it allows a higher backcast to clear grass and bushes on the river bank.

Where the low elbow style shines is casting AGAINST the wind or when the wind is a side wind. A lower cast is less affected by the wind.

A caster should be able to cast both ways and use the casting style that is most appropriate for the conditions.

Your tailing loop probably occurs most often when you try to cast a bit further than your normal distance. This is most likely due to either early rod creep in anticipation of the forward cast or too much power too early in the cast.

Fly Casting | Drift vs. Creep | Tips on Better Fly Casting

Casting Far with a Fly Rod | Tips for Long Casts

YouTube

The earlier in the rod stroke you misapply power, the later in cast the tailing loop occurs.When in the unfurling of the fly loop does the tailing loop occur? See:

Double Haul tailing loops

The absolute cure for a tailing loop is to make the backcast and forward casts in different casting planes. then the rod leg and fly leg of may cross BUT they CANNOT catch on each other.

A tailing loop is when the fly leg and the rod leg of the casting loop cross each other and get tangle. For this to occur, the back cast and forward cast must be performed in the same geometric plane.

Therefore by changing the angle of the fly rod between the back cast and forward cast, the two casts will be in two different planes. If the fly leg crosses the rod leg in the vertical plane, they will be separated in the horizontal plane and will not tangle.

The Belgian Cast, also called the oval or constant tension cast will prevent tailing loops. See my post in the thread below.

Tight, strong loops that catch the fly back on the line?
 
Last edited:

clayed21085

Well-known member
Messages
51
Reaction score
0
So here's another question for you if it's possible to see in that grainy video, what's supposedly causing the tailing loop for that gentleman lefty is helping? Is it more so a misapplication of power, not turning his tip down ( which appears he's doing) honestly it doesn't seem like his stroke is that terrible, maybe he is flicking the tip too hard at the end?
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
7,204
Reaction score
593
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
So here's another question for you if it's possible to see in that grainy video, what's supposedly causing the tailing loop for that gentleman lefty is helping? Is it more so a misapplication of power, not turning his tip down ( which appears he's doing) honestly it doesn't seem like his stroke is that terrible, maybe he is flicking the tip too hard at the end?
I can't tell the reason. Video is at the wrong angle and is poor quality and shaky. I notice he hauls so it could even be a mistimed early haul as noted on Sexyloops below.

Tailing Loops - description and cure

He does seem to begin the haul pretty early in his stroke but is it the reason? I don't know.

YouTube
 
Last edited:

karstopo

Well-known member
Messages
2,811
Reaction score
72
Location
Brazoria County, SE Texas
Really a lot of good information in this thread. Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to apply some of the knowledge herein to my time on the water. My tailing loops tend to be adrenaline induced. See a big redfish, get a tailing loop.
 

Fkrow

Well-known member
Messages
130
Reaction score
1
Confusion is mainly by the resident expert on casting,,,, two different styles does not mean one is correct the other "pure bullsh*t".

Lefty has influenced hundreds of thousands of fly rod casters since the early 1970's. Yes, his exact style has evolved over the years and changes with the videos. I was initially introduced to Lefty in the late 1970's with the saltwater type of casting which was my main interest at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xak_usK0i6E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtmNUw-KGqI#t=23.6999649


The tournament or European style with straight back over the shoulder and slam the beer mug on the bar has also been around for many years longer. The main problem with this style is the back cast and perfect timing required.
I have observed Mel Kreiger, Joan Wulff, Gary Borger and other famous writers make a longer cast and slap the water on their back cast with over rotation or weak stop.
Paul Arden is excellent in this style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3epIC5Skvro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsXBtmDvMas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMa6rLpnIeM#t=6.4658226


Intensive long hours of practice for distance tournament casting is fine,,, but for relaxed smooth casting while fishing, my choice is the Lefty Kreh style.

Regards,
FK
 
Last edited:

Hirdy

Well-known member
Messages
567
Reaction score
9
Location
Perth, Western Australia
Confusion is mainly by the resident expert on casting,,,,
I agree with SC: tailing loops are not caused by dropping the hand. They are caused by a tip path that drops and rises during the cast. If Lefty is indeed saying they are caused by dropping the hand, he's wrong.

Cheers,
Graeme
 

karstopo

Well-known member
Messages
2,811
Reaction score
72
Location
Brazoria County, SE Texas
Chico Fernandez videos and a Lefty Kreh book informed me on the basic cast. I don't know what a casting instructor would say about Mr. Fernandez style of casting. I do know that if I had to put my feet in the proper position and keep my arm at such and such angle every time, I'd have precious few shots to take at the fish such is the nature of where I choose to fish and the vessel I do it in.

I'm definitely not an instructor and have never had an in person lesson. I don't know if it is wrong to try lots of different arm, elbow, rod tip angles out on the water. Some things work, some don't. I'm kind of weeding out the ones that don't. I think if I tried the distance competition style shown in the videos I'd fall out of my kayak, so I may pass on that.
 

timd

Well-known member
Messages
355
Reaction score
30
Location
Florida, Montana
I learned many years ago using Lefty's technique and fishing mostly in the salt. The lower and more wind friendly style has served me well on the flats and mangroves. I have moved to the elbow forward style for most all of my trout fishing for all the reasons Silver enumerated, especially accuracy with the dry fly. I am pretty accurate side arm but more accurate overhead. I am very proficient with the double haul but when fishing distances under 45 or 50 ft seldom use it. I totally agree that one should get good at both techniques and use what works best for a given type of fishing
 

shadowwalker

Well-known member
Messages
70
Reaction score
0
Location
Fort walton beach Florida
I may as well be talking to the (dropping) hand. :p
I think I may sort of understand what your feeling about trying to be understood. Many years ago, about twenty or so I got real frustrated with my performance in enlightening students. Tho I could throw a fly rod with confidence I was no better at helping others to understand than those who help me to learn. Because frankly its just not that hard to throw a fly rod. So I got reasoning that there is something inadequate in the teaching method. Asking the instructors didn't help, they all copied each other, so I went to the only source of answers who could tell me were the problem was coming in from, the students themselves. Took me a while to find the right answer as I kept asking the wrong question. The very first time I applied the right answer the students showed me how right it was, and Ive never looked back. :)
 

ia_trouter

Senior Member
Messages
8,518
Reaction score
62
Location
Eastern Iowa, Southern Driftless
I enjoy Lefty's videos now and have learned from him. In the beginning I stopped watching his videos. He likes to swim against the current sometimes. I was trying to learn from five different pros at once and it was not at all enhancing my enjoyment, or expediting my advancement in learning to cast.
 

guest63

Account on hold
Messages
85
Reaction score
1
Location
Indiana
I learned many years ago using Lefty's technique and fishing mostly in the salt. The lower and more wind friendly style has served me well on the flats and mangroves. I have moved to the elbow forward style for most all of my trout fishing for all the reasons Silver enumerated, especially accuracy with the dry fly. I am pretty accurate side arm but more accurate overhead. I am very proficient with the double haul but when fishing distances under 45 or 50 ft seldom use it. I totally agree that one should get good at both techniques and use what works best for a given type of fishing
I agree. I have tried to cast with both styles. They both work. Lefty's style of casting relies more on the waist to generate power than on the arm and hand. If we need to have that kind of power, we shall use Lefty's method. But for more of us who do not need this kind of power, we don't need to use his method. Is Lefty's casting style a good style? Absolutely. But for most of us who like to have a traditional way of casting a fly rod, we may use Joan Wuff's method.
 
Last edited:

Hirdy

Well-known member
Messages
567
Reaction score
9
Location
Perth, Western Australia
I think I may sort of understand what your feeling about trying to be understood. ....
Oh, I have no problem getting people to understand my lessons in person. I just get frustrated with online people sometimes ... :D

Personally, I work with the person to improve whatever style they are currently using unless there's a fundamental flaw in it that prevents them from progressing. Side arm, vertical, whatever: they all work as long as the basic physics* is honoured. Get that tip moving in the direction that's required and the line must follow. How the body, arm and hand achieve that goal is up to the caster.

If the student is looking for other ways to cast (and they should) then we'll go through other styles and methods to achieve the same result.

Cheers,
Graeme

* I don't teach the student any physics unless they ask or if their background suggests they'd benefit from such a discussion.
 
Top